Danbooru

alias historical_reference_connection -> archetype_connection

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Archetype connection sounds very ambiguous to me. Without a description it could just as easily apply to a group of school-age characters, tsundere characters, characters which are really strong etc...

magcolo said:

Well, any suggestions then? Character reference connection?

I do think mythology characters and fairy tale characters being referenced would still count, to an extent, as "historical reference" even if they are fictional, because of their historical impact on culture.
Or at least it's easier to mix them in this same tag name, rather than finding a tag name that accurately encompasses both real-life and fictional history without being too ambiguous or inevitably scoop within it one or several of the already existing *_connection tags

magcolo said:

Well, any suggestions then? Character reference connection?

Literary Connection? Shared Origin? Origin Connection?

I agree that branching it out to cover myths and fairy tales is a good idea, but the word "archetype" makes me think RPG classes.

BUR #15814 has been rejected.

create alias historical_reference_connection -> character_origin_connection

Is this better? To be honest historical reference connection also sounds like it could be confused with historical connection or historical event. It’s just recognized because it was created for those personification games.

historical connection's wiki says

This can also be applied to posts featuring character(s) based on a historical entity that were connected in real life in one way or another.

This line makes me feel like they’re already being confused.

Mayhem-Chan said:

I do think mythology characters and fairy tale characters being referenced would still count, to an extent, as "historical reference" even if they are fictional, because of their historical impact on culture.

Do animals count? Cuz umamusume. It bugs me to call them "historical reference".

magcolo said:

Do animals count? Cuz umamusume. It bugs me to call them "historical reference".

that's a good point, i wouldn't include them in historical reference connection nor archetype connection either
I guess we can maybe try to split the idea between a tag supposed to cover for real life origins and another for fictional historical stuff, which would still need historical reference connection to be renamed.
Celebrity connection comes to my mind but i'm not any more sure about the effectiveness of that name

Mayhem-Chan said:

that's a good point, i wouldn't include them in historical reference connection nor archetype connection either

Are you saying that the tag name isn’t good or that they straight-up don’t qualify for archetype connection? Imo it’s the same concept since named animals has the same nature as human characters. But if you’re just saying that we should rename that tag then yeah I agree.

Mayhem-Chan said:

I guess we can maybe try to split the idea between a tag supposed to cover for real life origins and another for fictional historical stuff, which would still need historical reference connection to be renamed.
Celebrity connection comes to my mind but i'm not any more sure about the effectiveness of that name

They’re the same concept regardless, and some characters are on the edge between historical and fictional.

magcolo said:

Are you saying that the tag name isn’t good or that they straight-up don’t qualify for archetype connection? Imo it’s the same concept since named animals has the same nature as human characters. But if you’re just saying that we should rename that tag then yeah I agree.

Both, it's already been said up in the thread that archetype connection has some major problems in it's name, which i agree with, but also i think that even outside of this, "archetype" isn't a word i would use to describe what umamusume characters are inspired from

They’re the same concept regardless, and some characters are on the edge between historical and fictional.

what examples come to your mind for characters that fall into this? My idea was that some cases apply to both fictional and historical (mythology as the obvious example) and some only apply to one of the two, and some other would only apply to real life without evenpplying to historical (which is what i think Umamusume falls into)

Updated

Mayhem-Chan said:

Both, it's already been said up in the thread that archetype connection has some major problems in it's name, which i agree with, but also i think that even outside of this, "archetype" isn't a word i would use to describe what umamusume characters are inspired from

I see the ambiguity in archetype, that’s why I’m proposed alternate solutions. And anyone feel free to give suggestions.

As for umamusume, I don’t see what differs them from other archetype connections? (I’m just using the word archetype connection for the moment for the lack of a better term)

Mayhem-Chan said:

what examples come to your mind for characters that fall into this? My idea was that some cases apply to both fictional and historical (mythology as the obvious example) and some only apply to one of the two, and some other would only apply to real life without evenpplying to historical (which is what i think Umamusume falls into)

Yeah mythologies for the most part. I was gardening chinese mythology the other day only to found out some characters have real life bases. For instance Tang sanzang is based off of a real person. And Nezha has a brother who is a merge of two real life figures. And I’m sure that’s also the case for other myths. Not sure if King Arthur counts?

magcolo said:

I see the ambiguity in archetype, that’s why I’m proposed alternate solutions. And anyone feel free to give suggestions.

As for umamusume, I don’t see what differs them from other archetype connections? (I’m just using the word archetype connection for the moment for the lack of a better term)

The problem i see is that "archetype" as a word" is too broad for the tag to work with such a name, but i have to be honest it is indeed quite the challenge to come up with one that can work in practice, the idea is easy to get but somehow challenging to put into concise words that fit tag purposes. Again Celebrity connection is one i could include Umamusume in, which would technically also cover other human real-life and historical figures, but i'm not convinced it's "intuitive" enough, maybe i'm being picky?

Yeah mythologies for the most part. I was gardening chinese mythology the other day only to found out some characters have real life bases. For instance Tang sanzang is based off of a real person. And Nezha has a brother who is a merge of two real life figures. And I’m sure that’s also the case for other myths. Not sure if King Arthur counts?

Ah i see, it's clearer now, i should have thought about those

edit: Just thought about the name Historical icon connection, what are your thoughts on it?

Mayhem-Chan said:

[…]

Celebrity connection makes me think of hollywood kind of celebrity, might not be the best term on an otaku-based site. Historical icon connection, again, has the restrictive "historical" in its name. Someone else proposed literary connection, shared origin and origin connection. I’m not in favor of shared origin since it doesn’t follow the x_connection naming, but the others sound like the a good approach. My other BUR suggested character origin connection but people don’t seem to like it, there was also character reference connection.

magcolo said:

Celebrity connection makes me think of hollywood kind of celebrity, might not be the best term on an otaku-based site. Historical icon connection, again, has the restrictive "historical" in its name. Someone else proposed literary connection, shared origin and origin connection. I’m not in favor of shared origin since it doesn’t follow the x_connection naming, but the others sound like the a good approach. My other BUR suggested character origin connection but people don’t seem to like it, there was also character reference connection.

So we agree on celebtrity connection
I think my preferred option here is character reference connection, the "origin" variant feels way too prone to misunderstanding for comfort, even if i get it is intentionally made to cover for all the different cases we are trying to find a tag for;
"Literary" is just as restrictive as "historical" for the tag name, just in a different direction, which i'm not against, since i genuinely think the better course is to have two different tags rather than trying to mix all possible character origins/references regardless of said origins being from fiction or real-life, historical or more recent. To me a tag that tries to cover both for moe-fied real life racehorses and moe-fied mythologic deities will always have issues in its name and how well it describes it's use, so it's either we deal with it by choosing character reference connection and see how it goes, or it's a split between real-life origins and literary/fictional origins, but as you pointed out, there are edge cases and i myself can't come up with a solution to that, so if we go with the all-rounder, it's all fine

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