Posted under Tags
BUR #51436 is pending approval.
create alias alternate_hat_color -> alternate_headwear_color
create alias alternate_color_hat -> alternate_headwear_color
These two tags are functionally the same.
The latter has more posts tagged under it and makes more sense as the color changed (hence appearing earlier in phrase)
EDIT: BUR now merges all into alternate headwear color
Updated by i509VCB
I don't personally like this alternate_* tag but if you want to merge it, then it should be the other way around: no other tag has it as alternate_color_*, and it's more understandable imo
There's also alternate headwear color which has more posts than both
BUR #51442 is pending approval.
nuke alternate_hat_color
nuke alternate_color_hat
nuke alternate_headwear_color
Why do we even care?
Related: topic #30153
BUR #51457 is pending approval.
create alias alternate_hat_color -> alternate_headwear
create alias alternate_color_hat -> alternate_headwear
create alias alternate_headwear_color -> alternate_headwear
WRS said:
BUR #51442 is pending approval.
nuke alternate_hat_color
nuke alternate_color_hat
nuke alternate_headwear_colorWhy do we even care?
Related: topic #30153
that sounds inconsiderate to all the users who tagged this for the last 9 years imo. if the differences are small just group it all into a single tag.
How long you spend on something doesn't validate it if it's a low quality tag and only exists to increase the number of tags on a post, so that doesn't mean anything to me. We've deprecated and nuked tags that are older than this, it's not anything new. At least to me, it's not about the differences but what can be explained by either artistic license and a proper colour tag or just not at all.
That's why it's a question: why do we care? Making it a BUR forces someone to answer and vote on if we really do or provide a counterargument on why we should care. I'm on the side of don't care.
WRS said:
How long you spend on something doesn't validate it if it's a low quality tag and only exists to increase the number of tags on a post, so that doesn't mean anything to me. We've deprecated and nuked tags that are older than this, it's not anything new. At least to me, it's not about the differences but what can be explained by either artistic license and a proper colour tag or just not at all.
That's why it's a question: why do we care? Making it a BUR forces someone to answer and vote on if we really do or provide a counterargument on why we should care. I'm on the side of don't care.
i think that's wrong. if you make a BUR to nuke to a tag, you have to tell us why do we care about nuking the tag. basically the onus is on you to prove that the tag should be nuked, it's not on the dozens of random users who may not even visit the forums so they don't even know the tag is going to disappear in 45 days.
if you can't provide a reason for why the tag existing is detrimental, you should just ignore it. that's the neutral position to learning a tag exists. "we don't care" isn't a reason. i don't care about yuri, but i'm not making a BUR to nuke yuri just because i learned 2 minutes ago the yuri tag exists.
it also feels counterproductive because if you keep doing this you're basically creating incentives for users to avoid creating alias and implication BURs for tags they care about since they will know there is a possibility you'll just make a counter BUR to nuke the tag the instant you learn that their tag exists.
also, i think i've mentioned this before, but i still don't understand your insistence calling tags "padding tags". afaik there is no minimum number of tags you need to post something, so i don't think people are coming up with tags just to "pad" the tag count. what would they even stand to gain by doing this? i'm pretty sure people just saw a hat of alternate color, they knew the tag for a hat of alternate color existed, so they tagged the hat of alternate color. there's no ulterior motive in this, so i don't think "this is a padding tag" is a valid nuke reason because that just doesn't mean anything to me.
Knowledge_Seeker said:
I've had tags I've used very constantly nuked and deprecated before. Your individual feelings on a tag matter not if the tag itself is garbage to begin with.
i don't care about the hat tags, but the reason why these tags are "garbage" hasn't been articulated anywhere in this thread.
In terms of alternate_* tags, headwear colour offers little value considering they can usually be found easily via alternate headwear or alternate color anyway. If we started doing this for every article of clothing or accessory then it'd end up messy like with the current epidemic of colored_* tags and, to be honest, alternate_* tags generally.
Forcing low quality tags and tag padding onto users and then expecting that they get to stay, a lot of which never get any wikis or explanations or justifications on why they were made in the first place, isn't how it works. You wouldn't argue about a nuke if I started to tag every single type of key cap form factor on a post where the computer keyboard is barely visible, and if you did I would call you an absolute monkey. Sometimes the answer is simply "it's a shit tag" and not a deeper philosopical debate, ergo, the last bit of that post.
BURs are largely a pitch to admins that may but don't need to take into account how its voted on or discussed, so no I don't need to force myself to contrive a reason about a nuke when a simple "this shouldn't have been made" or "this tag doesn't have good value" is more than enough. Similarly, there are some tags that can just be made because they do have value, or ones that need to be discussed because they could be potentially controversial. You should spend more time on the site and in discussions to learn this.
I'm only here because I saw a forum post about doing something with the tags, so my alternate proposal is to chuck them. I would ignore it if it didn't get a forum post, same like what I do with a lot of other tags. You would be surprised to know how your headcanon about how people should deal with tags isn't popular; a sprinkle of dogmatism in the way you reply actually.
it also feels counterproductive because if you keep doing this you're basically creating incentives for users to avoid creating alias and implication BURs for tags they care about since they will know there is a possibility you'll just make a counter BUR to nuke the tag the instant you learn that their tag exists.
Creating tags and wikis requires actual and critical thinking. More users are likely to and already do avoid making any type of tag, even if it's the completely appropriate situation to do so, like a named OC with hundreds of posts. I don't think about, cater to or pander to these users. I'm interested in quality discussion about tagging by people who actually use the site, not people who just want to apply a label to every pixel of an image here.
If a user actually cares and wants to workshop a tag for something they like that isn't tagged but could be tag worthy, the forums are public. Applying this binary thinking isn't a healthy outlook for how people deal with tags but neither is "I should be allowed to make any tag I want without thinking of the consequences or precedents it may enable and others should be forced to adapt to what I want".
also, i think i've mentioned this before, but i still don't understand your insistence calling tags "padding tags". afaik there is no minimum number of tags you need to post something, so i don't think people are coming up with tags just to "pad" the tag count. [..] there's no ulterior motive in this, so i don't think "this is a padding tag" is a valid nuke reason because that just doesn't mean anything to me.
Low quality tags that don't add any value to an image and pet tags are padding tags. Spending time tagging miniscule parts of an image instead of trying to figure out the major aspects of it, and creating new tags where ultimately the sole value is simply more tags instead of high information tags, are padding. This was my gripe with font tags (topic #30059, see forum #336881). This was my gripe with outfits of a character doll (topic #32922). It has nothing to do with a minimum or maximum number of tags, padding is about putting quantity above quality. It doesn't have to be a fully conscious decision either, and often they aren't.
Want to comment on a double standard here but why does people's very niche NSFW fetish tags get to stay but some equally niche SFW tags don't. Even if 95% of people don't care about these tags there is a small amount of people who were searching them and removing them is detrimental to their experience.
The practice of removing tags because you think "95%> don't care about them" (ignoring the 5% that do) is pretty bad, imo. I guess only an admin have the stats on whether these tags were actually searched. On it's own, an alternate colored hat seems like a perfectly fine feature to tag.
You would have to provide actual examples of where you're seeing this because every case is different and can't be generalised. I was slightly of the same mind (see topic #30380 where I attempted to nuke out trapster's tags, and forum #335348 for the reply regarding it). At some point you can get carried away with your niche tags too and someone has to step in to tell you to relax.
NSFW niche tags generally tend to be high information (citation needed, I don't browse them) and provide a way to search for something that would otherwise be drowned in some other tag where you can't fine tune what you want or even completely unsearchable, and they're out of the way of most people. Copyright-specific tags are of somewhat the same brain. On the other hand, SFW tags are more of a tick some people get where they see something unlabeled and feel the need to tag it. It could be a blurry, 10px line in the background, but just have enough colour that you know what it could be. This is an overexaggeration or so I hope.
There's also the case that SFW tags and content get more attention on the site in general, contrary to belief. Most people don't want to deal with NSFW niche tags or they think the people who want that stuff should just be allowed to have it. Most people do want to deal with SFW tags because they're more comfortable with it or because they actually run into it getting onto their posts. Anything goes, no matter its actual value or search potential (topic #34079).
In an idealistic world, we would all be able to get what we want no matter how many people are searching it. That's not the reality though, which is largely that the site works well because tags tend to be simple and cover a lot. Most of these tags that get nuked is because they don't actually get searched much. Hence, expect to get burned if you have the mindset that you should just be able to make any tag you want without using your brain for it.
Sure, you can absolutely tag an alternate coloured hat. While you do that, I'll get busy tagging compass rose directions for images that are based on real life locations based on their coordinates and direction. The contrasting examples I've been lobbing here are pretty extreme opposites but it's somewhat to illustrate that these are just classic examples of "you can but should you?".
WRS said:
Forcing low quality tags and tag padding onto users and then expecting that they get to stay, a lot of which never get any wikis or explanations or justifications on why they were made in the first place, isn't how it works. You wouldn't argue about a nuke if I started to tag every single type of key cap form factor on a post where the computer keyboard is barely visible, and if you did I would call you an absolute monkey. Sometimes the answer is simply "it's a shit tag" and not a deeper philosopical debate, ergo, the last bit of that post.
BURs are largely a pitch to admins that may but don't need to take into account how its voted on or discussed, so no I don't need to force myself to contrive a reason about a nuke when a simple "this shouldn't have been made" or "this tag doesn't have good value" is more than enough. Similarly, there are some tags that can just be made because they do have value, or ones that need to be discussed because they could be potentially controversial. You should spend more time on the site and in discussions to learn this.
I'm only here because I saw a forum post about doing something with the tags, so my alternate proposal is to chuck them. I would ignore it if it didn't get a forum post, same like what I do with a lot of other tags. You would be surprised to know how your headcanon about how people should deal with tags isn't popular; a sprinkle of dogmatism in the way you reply actually.
Creating tags and wikis requires actual and critical thinking. More users are likely to and already do avoid making any type of tag, even if it's the completely appropriate situation to do so, like a named OC with hundreds of posts. I don't think about, cater to or pander to these users. I'm interested in quality discussion about tagging by people who actually use the site, not people who just want to apply a label to every pixel of an image here.
If a user actually cares and wants to workshop a tag for something they like that isn't tagged but could be tag worthy, the forums are public. Applying this binary thinking isn't a healthy outlook for how people deal with tags but neither is "I should be allowed to make any tag I want without thinking of the consequences or precedents it may enable and others should be forced to adapt to what I want".
Low quality tags that don't add any value to an image and pet tags are padding tags. Spending time tagging miniscule parts of an image instead of trying to figure out the major aspects of it, and creating new tags where ultimately the sole value is simply more tags instead of high information tags, are padding. This was my gripe with font tags (topic #30059, see forum #336881). This was my gripe with outfits of a character doll (topic #32922). It has nothing to do with a minimum or maximum number of tags, padding is about putting quantity above quality. It doesn't have to be a fully conscious decision either, and often they aren't.
imo it's not a good idea to make BURs randomly just because you can delegate the responsibility of figuring out whether the BUR is good or not to the admins that ultimately have the power to approve it. maybe it's just me, but i think if u make a BUR u are starting a process knowing there is a risk it's going to pass. like... you can't start a BUR and then be like "i didn't mean to nuke it" if it does get nuked.
either way, you say "it's a shit tag". okay, but the problem is... why are these shit tags but alternate headwear is not?
alternate_hat_color and alternate_color_hat do sound too specific, i agree
but alternate_headwear_color is a lot more generic, it has a wiki and it's not a "pet tag" with various taggers
even if these tags we bad as separate tags, what is the reason for not moving them into alternate headwear?
honestly, i think i've already talked too much on a thread about tags i don't even care about. the only reason i'm posting is that i believe nuking the tag is the last thing you do when there is nothing that can be done about it, not the first thing you do about it.
You would only believe that I'm pitching a random BUR without meaning it and think the admins should decide if my BUR is good or not by fundamentally misunderstanding where I'm approaching this from - which I think you already know exactly where since you've already replied to the crux of my posts here which is that I think they're pointless. I know my opinion and I put it up to be decided on. I want it to pass, that's why I made it and upvoted it. No one should put up BURs they don't mean, but you can be unsure if your BUR is the best course of action and invite discussion about it that way.
This topic is about alternate-coloured hats, so I don't want to get into off-topic whataboutisms about other tags when the only reason you would bring them up is to create a loaded question. I brought up other tags to explain my position about this one, not to also discuss endlessly about other tags and their value. Those are for different topics, and if I'm interested enough to partake in those discussions.
To answer, though, for alternate headwear in the sense of being a replacement tag, alternate headwear means a hat that a character is typically seen wearing is replaced by something else, like a sun hat to a pot or something. I don't see different colours of that same hat as a different hat altogether, so I don't agree with it in the sense that I think it stretches the tag's definition. I'm of the opinion that artistic license on one-off colour changes can just use a colour tag. If it's really major recolours overall, alternate color is there, and I would defend that tag because of characters like Acheron (Honkai: Star Rail).
WRS said:
You would only believe that I'm pitching a random BUR without meaning it and think the admins should decide if my BUR is good or not by fundamentally misunderstanding where I'm approaching this from - which I think you already know exactly where since you've already replied to the crux of my posts here which is that I think they're pointless. I know my opinion and I put it up to be decided on. I want it to pass, that's why I made it and upvoted it. No one should put up BURs they don't mean, but you can be unsure if your BUR is the best course of action and invite discussion about it that way.
This topic is about alternate-coloured hats, so I don't want to get into off-topic whataboutisms about other tags when the only reason you would bring them up is to create a loaded question. I brought up other tags to explain my position about this one, not to also discuss endlessly about other tags and their value. Those are for different topics, and if I'm interested enough to partake in those discussions.
To answer, though, for alternate headwear in the sense of being a replacement tag, alternate headwear means a hat that a character is typically seen wearing is replaced by something else, like a sun hat to a pot or something. I don't see different colours of that same hat as a different hat altogether, so I don't agree with it in the sense that I think it stretches the tag's definition. I'm of the opinion that artistic license on one-off colour changes can just use a colour tag. If it's really major recolours overall, alternate color is there, and I would defend that tag because of characters like Acheron (Honkai: Star Rail).
that's fair but why not mass update them instead of nuking so that you can move the posts tagged alternate hat color to alternate color? or just deprecate it so they can be moved to other tags manually? imo deprecating is better because it informs people who know the tag exist that they should use a different tag instead
I don't consider a hat a major recolour of the character's appearance which would dilute the value and purpose of alternate color. Deprecation is to prevent a tag from being readded with the eventual purpose of a nuke; you can still write a deprecation wiki without deprecating a tag. I don't find that step needed here because they're all tagged with something already.
Alternate color is what I use for Nikki's various outfit recolors...Because the entire outfit changes color, making it needed. If just a hat swapped color, there'd be no point in tagging it, it's such a minute detail, compared to a different shade of hair or dress.
Therefore, I'm of the opinion we don't need them.
NiceLittleDan said:
In terms of alternate_* tags, headwear colour offers little value considering they can usually be found easily via alternate headwear or alternate color anyway. If we started doing this for every article of clothing or accessory then it'd end up messy like with the current epidemic of colored_* tags and, to be honest, alternate_* tags generally.
The wiki for alternate color makes it clear that it applies to overall changes. I wouldn't consider the red hair bow in post #9612379 or the red hat ribbon in post #5059784 to be drastic enough color changes to be overall. Tagging those two posts as alternate color would simply have the second order effect of making that tag less useful.
WRS said:
I'm of the opinion that artistic license on one-off colour changes can just use a colour tag.
I find searchability really suffers when trying to find unusual cases, especially when a character tag is not nearly 100% solo. Short of danbooru adding the concept of "subentities" (semantically you describe that a hat belongs to some character, with a set of attributes), slogging through many posts of Patchouli Knowledge for any instances of her wearing a black hat and 90% being Kirisame Marisa makes it pretty hard to find all of those instances. Being a plebeian doesn't help there either as I can't force solo in addition.
Alixiron said:
There's also alternate headwear color which has more posts than both
I would be perfectly happy merging all the alternate hat color tags into the general alternate headwear color tag.
You say this as if having the tag would actually help when in this case it's effectively equivalent to a negated search of their normal hat. You can still end up seeing other clothes or lack thereof when negating their normal hat (patchouli_knowledge -purple_hat or whichever colour) or if you were to use this tag. In a post with both together, the tag could actually apply to Kirisame Marisa instead of Patchouli Knowledge, so the results still overlap in that case anyway. Those tags aren't designed to be mutually exclusive with other alternate tags.
I'm all for tagging unique and unusual things, just not all the time. That's part of the thing with these alternate tags, a few were made to tag considerably major and important parts of an image or identity of a character or perhaps awakening a power, and suddenly they proliferate for every single thing a character can be, do or wear. Nevermind if they actually get searched, are populated or actually make a commentary about what the image is about.
