jxh2154 said: Goes to show how much perceptions can vary. One of the biggest complaints people who don't like Touhou have is that "a lot of bad Touhou art gets approved just because it's Touhou", while your concern is the exact opposite.
I suspect a certain contributor with questionable taste and a very high upload count didn't help that perception.
Anyway, you should expect to see more Touhou deleted than anything else, because an utterly gargantuan amount of Touhou art gets posted. More post attempts = more deletions.
Don't get me wrong, I agree. I love touhou but a lot of crap gets uploaded.
This really all came about because it was so difficult to get comic pages approved that "should" have been according to the rule as opposed to touhou images in general.
jxh2154 said: Goes to show how much perceptions can vary. One of the biggest complaints people who don't like Touhou have is that "a lot of bad Touhou art gets approved just because it's Touhou", while your concern is the exact opposite.
Anyway, you should expect to see more Touhou deleted than anything else, because an utterly gargantuan amount of Touhou art gets posted. More post attempts = more deletions.
The only thing that bothers me is the sentiment that Touhou posts are just ignored. I understand there being a higher proportion and number of bad posts, but ignoring them on principle seems off.
jxh2154 said: Anyway, you should expect to see more Touhou deleted than anything else, because an utterly gargantuan amount of Touhou art gets posted. More post attempts = more deletions.
I understand that there is more Touhou then anything else and that decreases the odds of their acceptance. Still, there is a difference a stand alone picture and a page of an ongoing series that has already been translated. Those are the ones that worry me more since they create a situation where translators have to wonder if their time is going to be wasted translating something that might not be approved.
I don't doubt some do but unless it's systematic it shouldn't be a concern. Every janitor or mod (or admin) will have something - multiple somethings - they don't approve.
If someone is not going to approve them when they're visible - as he's under no obligation to do - then it doesn't matter if they're hidden.
Hiding them actually is a better idea in that case, because it gives everything else more visibility and more chance of being approved than it would have otherwise. The volume of Touhou art is a legitimate concern and liability because it can bury everything else. One of the most common tags I use is "-touhou", something I need to append to a lot of searches to get decent variety.
That's not even to say I dislike Touhou. I was very big into it for a year or two, imported a bunch of games/manga/CDs, etc, but eventually couldn't keep up with all the new characters and fell out of it. So not everyone avoiding Touhou is out to get Touhou fans or disliked it or anything. It just presents a very real logistical problem.
The_Shadow said: Still, there is a difference a stand alone picture and a page of an ongoing series that has already been translated.
There are 996 pages of touhou comic - that's absolutely nuts. It's nearly half of the entire comic tag. It's more images than all but the largest tier of gen tags and is significantly larger than nearly all copy tags.
Given the volume, stuff will slip through. I don't approve all that many comics as is, so it's even harder to ensure every Touhou doujin is fully fleshed out.
Fencedude said: Bland Touhou. Though the first was pretty good, so I undeleted it.
Its just...there's so much Touhou that I don't even bother to look at any that don't contain very specific characters, and I think a lot of Janitors/Mods are the same.
Its just so...Touhou.
Shinjidude said I mostly ignore Touhou entirely at this point, so that's why I didn't approve them. In general though, they're rather mediocre, and have an unrefined quality to their art styles (especially post #869995).
I've heard this for about a year now in various appeal posts. I spoke to rantuyetmai, for example, who avoids posts with the Touhou character Hong Meiling because he doesn't like her, which is fine as its not a major point (all of my touhou posts are approved with few exceptions) but I figured I might as well bring it up.
The reason I bring this up is the "I think a lot of janitors/mods are the same" because I don't think he would make such a statement without some basis.
There are 50 people who can approve pics on the site. I doubt that 4 or 5 guys who don't give a shit about touhou "hurt" the probability of the pics to be approved.
FeKa said: There are 50 people who can approve pics on the site. I doubt that 4 or 5 guys who don't give a shit about touhou "hurt" the probability of the pics to be approved.
That would assume all 50 are active and all 50 approve all copyrights. I don't think either has ever been true.
Searching for 'touhou' and then 'touhou status:deleted' gives us (in page counts) 547 / 10406, or about 5% deletion rate for touhou pics.
For comparison, the overall deletion rate is 8%.
'breasts' have a 10% deletion rate, meaning that, yes, Touhou is more popular than breasts.
Or, in other words: If anything, Touhou images are actually still getting approved slightly more frequently than non-Touhou images. Debatably, you could argue that this is because they're likely to actually be higher quality (as opposed to, I don't know, random images grabbed off the internet and uploaded with no tags, which would probably be padding out the generic deletion numbers), or because of entire comics getting approved at once (which would pad out the Touhou numbers a bit.)
But overall, I'm not seeing any big gap in Touhou approvals.
While I genuinely don't hate Touhou at all (though I'm sure I've done or said some things before that would suggest otherwise), the lack of approvals in such a ubiquitous copyright where a large amount of subpar-to-average posts are uploaded is completely understandable to me. Sometimes it's just too much to sift through in the Moderation queue.
I'd also like to further explain my perspective on this issue. Touhou in general, be it the games, flash animations, artwork, etc., isn't one that I have a real interest in. This is shown further in my uploads and approvals of posts under that copyright. But I do have a couple of favorite Touhou females due to being introduced to Danbooru, those being Hong Meiling, Yukari Yakumo, and Marisa Kirisame.
As of reading this thread, this is something I will take into account when going through the moderation queue from now on. But just to leave you with a general idea of what my standards are: Copyright is almost never a concern, quality takes precedence. As long as the artwork is objectively good, I'll approve it. Managing to make me laugh doesn't hurt, either.
Thanks to Anelaid for being the first one to give more than one concrete example on how some janitors or mods simply overlook Touhou. I had similar memories of forum discussions, but it would have been tricky to give proof.
Thanks to Jxh2154 for pointing out that the problem with the volumes of Touhou is one of logistical scale. Danbooru has grown so huge that getting the big picture from outside the janitor-and-above circles is nigh impossible.
Xabid said:
Let's do some actual math.
I almost gave you a positive record for adding valuable facts to the discussion, but I am afraid you mixed up the numbers in your presentation.
Xabid said:
Searching for 'touhou' and then 'touhou status:deleted' gives us (in page counts) 547 / 10406, or about 5% deletion rate for touhou pics.
Searching for touhou gives me a total of 9862 pages and a note that in addition there are 10947 deleted posts with that tag (as of writing this).
Assuming that the page counts are correct (no bugs), the deletion rate for Touhou pics is around 5,5% (548 / 9862). Your point is still valid, you just mistakenly replaced the number of Touhou pages total with the number of Touhou posts deleted total.
Searching for 'touhou' and then 'touhou status:deleted' gives us (in page counts) 547 / 10406, or about 5% deletion rate for touhou pics.
For comparison, the overall deletion rate is 8%.
But overall, I'm not seeing any big gap in Touhou approvals.
Expanding on what you said and my take on a "true" comparison:
- It should be a comparison of copyright vs copyright. - Comics would need to be removed and just general images taken into comparison. - Contributors would need to be removed from the equation.
The first point would be to see if "ignoring touhou" was having an effect vs other copyrights. General images are too... general.
The second is a must since there is just such a vast amount of touhou comics and they really could skew the numbers.
The last is likely the most important. Contributors throw the numbers off (since they bypass approvals) to such a degree that any comparison would be impossible.
Now don't get me wrong I agree with your point in general, I just wanted to have my own take on it. I honestly am not sure if it came across like this though.
Siegmund_200% said: The big flaw I can see it if blacklists still apply to it. Certain subsets of images (specifically touhou) seem to be blacklisted or just flat out ignored.
The way I understand it, if you lack knowledge or interest about some topics, you're probably not the best suited janitor to review them. Then given that other people are likely to do a better job, it may be more efficient to rely on them and skip said topics so that you can focus on the fields where you qualify more.
I have the feeling however that janitors+ overall are too optimistic about this and rely on each other too much, with posts eventually never getting reviewed after being skipped by everyone.
FeKa said: There are 50 people who can approve pics on the site. I doubt that 4 or 5 guys who don't give a shit about touhou "hurt" the probability of the pics to be approved.
It wouldn't because forcing someone to care doesn't really work, but the 50 people number is off. 75% of the overall approvals of the site are consistently owned by the same group of ~15 people, and currently half of the touhou approvals are pretty much in the hands of 3 of them, resulting in a sensible drop whenever one of them is away. We don't need people to start caring we need people who care to be active and rebalance their share so they can effectively support each other. I'm pretty sure right now a few janitors must be annoyed that no one can replace them if they take some break.
But I have to ask this question: Who to say the new janitors/mods/etc won't end up lazy like the old ones? If we're to have touhou-dedicated or just new folks we need to cover that particular angle.
But I must say holes in comic pools are pretty annoying.
We've always had falloff and those people need to be replaced. We could even cull ones that have been inactive for a long time. People will "end up lazy" if they have other stuff to do or just become disinterested (it's quite a lot of work actually, I think a lot of eager janitors underestimate it and become overwhelmed).
Anyway, I don't see a very significant change in the mod queue, in terms of how many hides an image gets (since the Dashboard was introduced, which I think doesn't make use of the "hide in mod queue" function?). If Touhou-approvals really are an issue, we can recruit based on that, but I don't know if it's actually true.
Maybe we need deletion appeal thread special OPS? :D
スラッシュ said: We've always had falloff and those people need to be replaced. We could even cull ones that have been inactive for a long time. People will "end up lazy" if they have other stuff to do or just become disinterested (it's quite a lot of work actually, I think a lot of eager janitors underestimate it and become overwhelmed).
Anyway, I don't see a very significant change in the mod queue, in terms of how many hides an image gets (since the Dashboard was introduced, which I think doesn't make use of the "hide in mod queue" function?). If Touhou-approvals really are an issue, we can recruit based on that, but I don't know if it's actually true.
Maybe we need deletion appeal thread special OPS? :D
If only 15 or so of 50 possible people are handling all the work then I'd say that's probably the issue, not that some of those 15 have whole fandoms they ignore. Still, recruiting specifically for one fandom - even one as large as Touhou - seems like a slippery slope.
I don't think we need a special OPS team since those are expensive and fall outside of the chain of command, which makes everyone unhappy.
I think just having someone go through the appeal thread regarding comics would be whats needed for now, since I imagine most of the legitimate appeals are for those reasons.
StriderTuna said: But I have to ask this question: Who to say the new janitors/mods/etc won't end up lazy like the old ones? If we're to have touhou-dedicated or just new folks we need to cover that particular angle.
But I must say holes in comic pools are pretty annoying.
スラッシュ said:
Maybe we need deletion appeal thread special OPS? :D
Hopefully this thread forum #63240 will help with the holes in comic pools.
It really just needs the mods to go over it to:
A) Know it is there. B) Add any thoughts regarding the current rules. C) just do some minor initial policing to make sure all the requests are really a case of "click link and go". ie all requests are correct.
So far some of this has been touched upon but the more input the better.
