Danbooru

Wiki suggestions: frills,ruffles

Posted under General

I tried to follow this conversation, but I admit my eyes started to glaze over - this stuff is all the same so me so I'm not a great person to be making the decision.

Is there a consensus, then? I'll happily defer to people who knows much more about this than I.

regarding the latest development, i already support Cyberia-Mix's suggestion:

Cyberia-Mix said:
- moving ruffles -> frills_(integral)
- aliasing ruffles -> frills
- implicating frills_(integral) -> frills

as far as the tag alias is concerned, i honestly think there are enough cumulative votes for the alias to proceed.

the seemingly conflict between frills and lace can be solved by modifying the frills definition to "A ruffled, gathered, or pleated border or projection, such as a fabric edge used to trim clothing" instead of the current one which explicitly mentions lace. i'll update the wiki as soon as the alias is made.

Updated

jxh2154 said:
Is there a consensus, then?

Not exactly. Having a couple more opinions would be nice but I guess you could count this silence as a +1 vote for keeping things simple (though the forum isn't really active in general lately).

Shinjidude's proposition is cleaner, and possibly better in some future where we have way more frilled* posts than now (that said we have a ton of implications for a multitude of weapon tags with only a couple posts so it's not without precedent), while my proposition is a bit more confuse but as a result keeps things easier to use (and close to what they are now).

Few people care enough about distinguishing frills/ruffles so that we avoid an alias, so it's reasonnable to think that few people will expect much detail in tagging.

gathers could be a better name than frills_(integral) though.

I take it this discussion was never resolved? I would like to move towards a conclusion.

I basically concur with Shinjidude, except that I would use trim for the catch-all tag indicating any decorative edgewear. In summary form,

I believe we have reached a consensus on the above bulleted points in this thread. I would as well support implicating gathers and the attendant gathered_* tags to frills and frilled_*.

freefunctor said:
In summary form,

Agree. I like this solution best.

freefunctor said:
I believe we have reached a consensus on the above bulleted points in this thread. I would as well support implicating gathers and the attendant gathered_* tags to frills and frilled_*.

If gathers implicates frills there's no need for gathered_X tags, since frilled_X + gathers will do the same.

jxh, just in case, please remember to move ruffles to gathers before aliasing ruffles to frills.

Cyberia-Mix said:
please remember to move ruffles to gathers before aliasing ruffles to frills.

That's not what was proposed in this thread and won't do a new tag any good. The "frills" and "ruffles" words are synonyms accourding to dictionaries and wikipedia and so they were used interchangebly by some(many?) users. Therefore if we really want to make a tag for what is described in forum #31933 it's probably better to start it from a scratch.
Though personally I would prefer just aliasing ruffles to frills and be done with it.

Also lace shouldn't implicate trim because pieces of closing can be made entirely of lace and not just trimmed with it. After all we do differentiate between lace and lace-trimmed garment(mostly lingerie).
And now when I think about it, the same can be said about gathers, if we're sticking to definition from forum #31933.

So yet again, I would prefer to simply alias ruffles to frills. Otherwise it would be a good idea to come up with a better name for a catch-all tag.

EDIT: How about we abandon the idea of grand catch-all tag. Perhaps aliasing ruffles to frills, then making a gathers tag and implicating it to frills could be an acceptabe and simple solution. Optionally, someone can make gathers beforehand and move some of the posts currently tagged with ruffles to it before the alias takes place.

Updated

We're getting closer!
How about this:

Embroidery (thought I'd add it to the discussion as it's related and the tag already exists anyway):
The art of decorating various materials with ornamental designs, often raised, made of fabrics through the use of needle and thread.
Can also include small items like strips, beads, etc.
Embroideries may be "sewed over", or worked through the underlying fabric.
A form of trim when applied to clothing.
I'm not sure if there's much use (or worth to the confusion) to separating this from trim as far as danbooru goes. Unless we want to use it as the equivalent of trim for non-clothing, or only tag obvious, isolated designs.

Lace:
A type of fabric/cloth made with an abundance of noticeable open space between threads.
It usually looks like fine netting with many intricate patterns and differing density. It is not limited to clothing.
It can be added as a trim, or entire clothing pieces (often underwear) can be made of it.
Should be seen as a material for tagging purposes.

Pleat:
A type of gathering. It basically seems to vary only in how it is made. For danbooru purposes however, it is considered as the visual distinction of the folds in gathers being pressed, so you get a sharp crease.

Gathers:
Quite literally "gathering" large amounts of fabric, in a smaller space so that it creates many creases or "loops".
Related to but not be confused for ruffles.

Trim:
Any decorative "extensions" applied to cloth.
Not limited to ruffles.

Edging:
It is basically a trim on the edge of clothing. It can refer to some non-trims as well. Personally I don't think it should be differentiated unless we want to use it for things like the pink border in post #982428, the black borders in post #972872, or the red "dotted" line in post #974782, and not consider half of these trim.

Frills:
When a strip of fabric is gathered at one side, leaving the other free, and then applied to clothing as a trim, or is used as such. Compare to gathering, which is a more integral part of the base clothing layer.
The two can be hard to distinguish at times.
It is a form of trim.

Ruffle:
Alias to frill.

Fringe:
An ornamental border of threads left loose or formed into tassels or twists, as often seen in Native or South American and typical "far west" clothing.
It is a form of trim.

Short summary of proposed changes (outdated):

While at it:

Examples (some may be NSFW):
post #999466: Underwear made of lace.
post #972719: Her dress is gathered. Her thighhighs have a trim made of lace
post #971335: Lace-embroidered garters. The white garters on the right have what looks like a lace trim as well. The black garters on the left, and the white thighhighs on the right have a gathered trim, aka ruffle/frill.
post #972872: Black lace trim
post #915736: Gathered, but quite ambiguous.
post #969748: Ruffles everywhere. The large blue cloth around her does not qualify for "gathered", it is a physics effect. (just saying)
post #973540: Her bra has a lace trim, and lace embroidered on it (which is also a trim of course, of the embroidered type).
post #972899: Many lace parts. Perhaps some trim too, unsure.
post #974782: Lace trim I would assume. (example of tatting, too)
post #996832: Ruffles.
post #978708: Gathered.
post #957699: I'd consider the apron to have ruffles and the sleeves gathered, though they could be considered frills too. The white dress under the black one seems gathered but could fall under the "gathers used as frills" clause, and has a ruffle over her chest. The black dress also has ruffles over the chest (at least I think that's what it's supposed to be), and the thing with the blue line around her neck is just trimmed.
post #996492: Gathered/pleated skirt.
post #948794 and post #945118: More obvious examples of danbooru's use of pleat/pleated.

Note: post edited to address the points mentioned further down.

Updated

glad to finally see a major activity.

just like before, i offer my support for the earlier proposal to alias ruffles to frills or otherwise for simplicity's sake.

regarding other implications and supersets, i admit i seldom use other related tags (outside frills, frilled_*) and i'm no expert here so i'll support the majority's decision.

and thanks for the poster for providing examples. some of those might need cleaning too.

Pleat:
A type of gathering. It basically seems to vary only in how it is made. Aliased to gathering.

i just have my doubts aliasing pleat to gathering because pleated seems to have clear and sharp edges (folds) while gathering based on the definition above have "loops". i think they can be distinct. so the last example post #996492 might be better to fall to pleated skirt than gathered skirt.

MyrMindservant said:
That's not what was proposed in this thread and won't do a new tag any good. The "frills" and "ruffles" words are synonyms accourding to dictionaries and wikipedia and so they were used interchangebly by some(many?) users. Therefore if we really want to make a tag for what is described in forum #31933 it's probably better to start it from a scratch.

I believe there's less cleanup to do if we keep the current content of ruffles. I'm being personally involved here but not all people confuse the tags either and some have tagged a considerable amount of those. I don't want to drown the tag and lose that work we did. I don't think the tag currently looks that bad to make this the best solution.

MyrMindservant said:
Also lace shouldn't implicate trim because pieces of closing can be made entirely of lace and not just trimmed with it. After all we do differentiate between lace and lace-trimmed garment(mostly lingerie).

I stand corrected, yes. At least, lace-trimmed_X should.

MyrMindservant said:
And now when I think about it, the same can be said about gathers, if we're sticking to definition from forum #31933.

Using current terminology, the thing is, and you have noticed, that at first sight ruffles look like frills, but when you look closer they don't.
An alias is no good because images like post #915736 are lost, and keeping the tags entirely separate is bothersome because you need to split the frilled_X tags in two when the contents generally look very much alike. The normal assumption, I think, is that people will by default expect to see the posts with gathers included when looking for frills/frilled*, but for more specific results we still want to be able to filter out gathers or search exclusively for them, hence an implication.
And while the ruffles on post #915736 aren't trimming, such images are rare enough so that having the trim tag on them when they shouldn't really matters.

SystemXS > Like ghostrigger said, pleated_skirt and the like are meant for straight folds. There's no benefit in mixing them with gathers which are wavy.

Agree with the rest (I don't care which of ruffles or frills is kept as the future name), except on post #978708. These are all gathers to me, not ruffles.

Updated

Cyberia-Mix said:
...post #978708. These are all gathers to me, not ruffles.

Yup, my bad. Edited.

As for gathered vs pleat, they seem technically the same in that they "compact" fabric together in various ways, where sharp creases can be made by pressing, which is also what most definitions seem to support, but I can see why you'd want to keep them separate for visual style.

MyrMindservant said:
We're going to move the content of ruffles to gathers, then alias ruffles to frills

+1

MyrMindservant said:
and then implicate gathers to frills, right?

I have my doubts about this due to distinctions mentioned in earlier posts, -1.

For the record (edited):

SystemXS said:
Short summary:

Updated

"ruffles becomes gathers
frills aliased to ruffles or vice-versa"

This bit would need to be confirmed first. "Ruffles becomes gathers" sounds like "alias ruffles -> gathers", which would have an impact on the second clause there.

jxh2154 said:
This bit would need to be confirmed first.

The general consensus seems to be to move the content of ruffles to gathers before the alias happens, as that seems like what it's mainly, and incorrectly used for. Whether this should be automatic (mass-edit) or manual seems undecided.

Also see my previous post (forum #66477) for a full list of related definitions and examples which seemed well-received so far (?). I've edited it a bit to address the points mentioned in the posts above.

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