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Tag suggestion: Touhou_(PC98)

Posted under General

Let's have some climatic music to accompany us in this thread.

It takes no genius to realize that the first five games are of a different era than the rest and their appearance is different. The few things binding them together with the newer creations are: ZUN, the game type and a handful of characters which appear in either generations; though they still have separate tags to either "forms" (hakurei_reimu_(classic); kirisame_marisa_(classic); alice_margatroid_(young) and kazami_yuuka_(classic)). I believe that it'll be of best interest, to also have a way to browse only the "old" content all grouped up, meaning that it'll cover all characters from Highly_Responsive_to_Prayers, Story_of_Eastern_Wonderland, Phantasmagoria_of_Dim.Dream, Lotus_Land_Story and Mystic_Square and the four chartags mentioned earlier. Estimated tag size: ~4000.

There is a pc98 tag, but I'd rather leave it for other pc98 creations (I don't believe that those will happen anytime soon, if ever) or images imitating pc98 appearance (pixel_art, much) OR the actual pc98 presence on images (see the brackets for creations).

Pixiv has an "old touhou" (pixpedia article) tag of some sort, but I do believe that touhou_(pc98) is the best to go with. All in all, pc98 is what makes them so unpopular/unknown/unreachable (okay, much less canon data does too). I also volunteer to spread the tag on my own, once I get to know whether it's wanted by someone more than myself. I'll give it a few days(3-5) to process in here, unless I'll be allowed to do that earlier. If no really opposing opinion occurs, I'll go ahead and do it after those few days pass (wiki creation included, all help in composing one will be appreciated).

Updated by Toks

-1, one touhou tag really is enough. Touhou is too mixed, too interlinked, too big more than anything. All the games are chapters of one story in one world, even the pc98 games.

I haven't seen the individual game characters in use in ages, because there's no use in separating the images into one game or another, at least not based on the characters.

Also, it would only eventually dissolve into the state that tales_of_* and such are in, but at least there the different games have different and very separate characters.

It is enough, if you are satisfied with finding 1 relevant image for each 95 results (if you are lucky). You mentioned that yourself, it's "too big", meaning that it is clearly not enough. If it really were though, do you think I'd bother creating this thread at all?

Interlinking in five games in question is limited to those five games only, what happened there is never related to afterwards (with exceptions of Alice remembering Reimu and Reimu mentioning defeat of Yuuka to her, but there is absolutely no relation on the circumstances they previously met/fought in, anywhere in "modern" data). Am I really asking for that much?

I'm not questioning the numerous copyright tags for a few other franchises, because I (want to) believe that they all are relevant.

Serlo said:
What images do you hope to find in this tag?

Any relevant to what I mentioned; be it characters or the stories. There is a relevant pixpedia article linked too.

The distinction between the two eras is common enough (if not to say, the most common) to exist wherever Touhou is mentioned, I don't know why is this site any different or why should it still be. That's just another reason for this proposal.

Neither of your given forum threads deny what I'm proposing. All in all, I do not want implications (as you already pointed out too), I'd do all the work manually, as mentioned near the end of the OP, with additional tag gardening where needed, when I'd be at it. I am next to sure that this tag will cause no harm to the current tag system, chances of those characters getting into the windows era are minimal and they (chances) fade with each passing year. The last time it happened, danbooru was up for 3 months.

Really all I want is to clear up what you're proposing, which is implicating pc98 characters to touhou (pc98) (though manually tagged without doing real implications as mentioned in those forum threads, which is an aside). I don't mind either way really; I just think it'll be redundant and not useful.

I do sometimes wish we had useful touhou_<game> tags, so I could find depictions of events, scenes & such, but really all they tend to be good for is "cast photos". But even with the group photos, it can be tricky, e.g. I've seen eosd tags photos without cirno and rumia. They can be useful for finding repeating characters' different costumes, but that's unreliable.

  • If they were more useful than that, then this tag really would be redundant to the 5 touhou_<pc98_game> tags.
  • If you're only looking for these "group photos", then it's already redundant (or you should go populate the existing tags)
  • If you think you can make it more useful, then please do, but I'm sure the same could be done to clear up the game tags.

Serlo said:
I do sometimes wish we had useful touhou_<game> tags, so I could find depictions of events, scenes & such, but really all they tend to be good for is "cast photos". But even with the group photos, it can be tricky, e.g. I've seen eosd tags photos without cirno and rumia. They can be useful for finding repeating characters' different costumes, but that's unreliable.

I use everyone for the cast photos of individual games and absolutely_everyone for cast photos of the whole franchise. Example: the_embodiment_of_scarlet_devil everyone

I also removed the_embodiment_of_scarlet_devil from quite a few images that only had the SDM crew (no Rumia/Cirno). Although when people noticed and commented on it, they wanted an SDM pool similar to the misused Moriya Family / Yakumo Family / etc. pools that we really didn't need either.

Wypatroszony said:
I believe that it'll be of best interest, to also have a way to browse only the "old" content all grouped up, meaning that it'll cover all characters from Highly_Responsive_to_Prayers, Story_of_Eastern_Wonderland, Phantasmagoria_of_Dim.Dream, Lotus_Land_Story and Mystic_Square and the four chartags mentioned earlier. Estimated tag size: ~4000.

Are you looking to include Shuusou Gyoku and Kiou Gyoku in this?

And no, I don't see the point of having every Mima image tagged touhou_(pc98).

Well are you also proposing the tag be used more for story related things?

As an example. Sakuya's childhood and Scarlet Devil Fairy by Ricia use the PC98 characters for this story like Yumeko and Shinki(which gets alot of screen time in the 2nd season). Granted that's more of a video manga series than individual pictures for Danbooru purposes, but that's the only example I can think of.

The PC98 cast in general isn't all that popular even if we do count Mima and Shinki who are probably the most popular of the entire cast of the first 5 games.

I like the tag due to the inherent separation between the pc98 games and the windows ones.

Also the find the relative obscurity of the pc98 games adds to the value of the tag in this situation.

I think an "old era" vs "new era" tag is overall more useful then troublesome since it will have a decent number of images and will really help anyone trying to figure out why a character then have never seen before suddenly is in a manga.

There's probably not enough art of the PC-98 characters, we really only see Mima(924) and Shinki(945), Classic versions(257)(250)(331)(711), Yumemi(392) and Yumeko(293) every now and then, and Chiyuri(268) and Elly(271) on the odd occasion so there's not a whole lot of fanart of the PC-98 stuff.

S1eth said:
Are you looking to include Shuusou Gyoku and Kiou Gyoku in this?

Both of them are Seihou though and as far as I know it was released only on Windows. If a Seihou form of any of the three characters happens, it should be tagged with both touhou and seihou, but not the pc-98 variant. Seihou Marisa has her own tag, though it was unclear and did miss the seihou tag on a few images until I added it in there.

S1eth said:
And no, I don't see the point of having every Mima image tagged touhou_(pc98).

Mima is likely the most pc98 character that remained there (appearance in 4 games) and as such, she's the subject to be tagged. No discriminations. Don't want Mima? "Touhou_(pc98) -Mima".

Tetsamaru said:
Well are you also proposing the tag be used more for story related things?

That's a very good question. Of course it would, though I don't know to what degree. If it revolves mainly/entirely in any of the settings present in the first games, then I'd be leaning towards tagging a whole story with this. In any other possibility, only the pages which the characters appear on would be tagged. (This is a subject to further discussion, I didn't really think of this when I created this thread.)

A while ago I thought it was a good idea, although I would consider calling it touhou_(classic) to match the *_(classic) character tags.

Although PC-98 should have a dash, as in touhou_(pc-98), if we go with that.

Besides the clear distinction of eras between PC-98 and Touhou now, with its different platforms, set of characters, and setting... since the Touhou tag is so vast, then because the PC-98 era is not as popular and there are relatively less pictures than the rest of Touhou, it's only more reason for separation.

This way it would be easier to facilitate searches for PC-98 Touhou only if the user wants it, instead of those images being totally drowned out by the more dominating modern era that receives most of the attention and amount of images. Simply, the sheer size of Touhou makes it a wiser, more search friendly option.

Still, almost being two different series should be enough for a separate tag, anyway. Being able to filter the large amount of images if need be is just another benefit of a PC-98 Touhou tag.

At any rate, sure, I'm for it. Especially as I, for one, don't see the problem with all Mima images being tagged with it. Nor do I see it as particularly redundant.

Seihou is Seihou and should only be tagged with that. The only relation it has to Touhou is ZUN's involvement and the few Touhou characters who guest star in it, which are basically in name only, anyway. Reimu and Marisa, at least, don't very much resemble their PC-98 OR Touhou incarnations, although are still closer to their later look. Meanwhile Yuuka is closer to her PC-98 look. This is confusing things, though. If they're in the image, then it obviously needs a Touhou tag, but only then.

As for story, event, scene related images, I feel like that's getting away from the point. It's a larger question more relevant to all Touhou game tags. I try to tag obvious story related images to their Touhou game/manga/whatever as much as possible, while others don't, either because of oversight, or they never consider anything more than cast pics.

Furthermore, it's the question of what constitutes an image definitively being related to the game in question. Some, like a cast, a costume, or dialogue are easy. Would a random image of Utsuho vs. Reimu or something count? Maybe, but it probably shouldn't, since similar images might bog down the tag. Might it be more worthy if it also showed a specific card from the game being used? It's all stuff to consider that doesn't make populating game tags very easy.

Updated

UnderneathTheWaves said:
Would a random image of Utsuho vs. Reimu or something count? Maybe, but it probably shouldn't, since similar images might bog down the tag.

Only if it's a classic Reimu.

Might it be more worthy if it also showed a specific card from the game being used?

The only problem with "cards" in those games would be that there are no actual spellcards in them.

There is no hard opposition on the creation of the tag, so I'll proceed on bringing it to life, even just to see how it goes, after I get some rest.
In that time, I'd like to know the suggested tag to go with, be it touhou_(classic) or touhou_(pc-98) as per UnderneathTheWaves propositions, because I'd hate to hear "why did you call it that?". And in all honesty, either of those is fine by me, leaning towards pc-98.

Ed.: pc-98 it is then. Pity no one said anything in those twelve hours.
I'm getting to work. If need arises, contact me personally, I usually don't bite.

Updated

Wypatroszony said:
Only if it's a classic Reimu.

The only problem with "cards" in those games would be that there are no actual spellcards in them.

My last two paragraphs weren't talking about PC-98, they were about the use of Touhou game tags as a whole, in response to Serlo's post about them.

Anyway, *_(pc-98) is more correct, but like I said, *_(classic) matches the scheme we already had. I prefer classic for that reason.

Due to the sheer amount of Touhou content, this can have both positive and negative benefits. For one thing, getting it worked into Touhou content uploaders' process of tagging newly uploaded images will take a while. It would also require an initial iteration over all content that is deemed as classic Touhou.

However, it would make searching for particular content that much easier...but to what extent? Is there a relatively high frequency of classic Touhou content uploaded still? I think gathering data on classic Touhou content upload frequency over time, as well as getting more feedback from members, will help make this decision easier. I don't upload to nor search for Touhou content on Danbooru (gasp!) so I'm not even close to being an expert on the subject.

If working it into the system can be easily managed, I personally don't see why this isn't a good idea.

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