Danbooru

Hopeless Masquerade tagging (and Touhou in general)

Posted under General

I'm not calling him out or anything, but S1eth and I have some pretty different ideas as to what deserves the hopeless_masquerade tag. Some game tagging he and I agree on, like post #1415340 which isn't all too indicative of double_dealing_character, where you wouldn't know it was about DDC without following the artist, but there are others.

I know how to tag Touhou titles has come up sometimes and that any three people probably have no consistent idea how to tag game titles between them all, but with some conflict here and there once again, I felt it might be time to revisit it in one thread.

I think most of us have already agreed upon rules, like cast pics. Yes, they deserve the tag. But then, how much of the cast need to be present? Do the playable characters need to be there? Is just the main antagonist group without the one or two minor, plot irrelevant bosses enough? Anyway, with the playables, include everyone. If it's just the main antagonist group, then include the game tag, without everyone.

Then there are some images tagged ten_desires with just toyosatomimi_no_miko, mononobe_no_futo, and soga_no_tojiko. It might just be mistaken tagging that was never rectified, but the game does revolve around them, while as I see it, perfect cherry blossom doesn't really revolve around yakumo_yukari , yakumo_ran and chen. Though it's moot. With so many pics of just the three out there and not wanting to bog down the tag, along with the longstanding unofficial Touhou policy of not creating or using new tags / pools just to group a household or gathering of related characters, and not wanting to drown the tag, I'd say kaku_seiga and miyako_yoshika or konpaku_youmu and saigyouji_yuyuko would need to be included before including a game tag.

In other words, once again, a full, main antagonist group, at least. Although this is one I know people would definitely disagree on.

But the main thing that caused me to speak out is... costumes, alternate outfits, and colors... along with references, parody, and such.

When it comes to Touhou's printworks like curiosities_of_lotus_asia or wild_and_horned_hermit I and some others tend to use copyright tags for costumes exclusive to that series, that wouldn't be found otherwise when just searching a character tag. These costumes simply tend to be uncommon and near impossible to find without the corresponding copyright tag, but it hasn't exactly crossed over to game titles.

As to how that applies to hopeless_masquerade for a few examples of which I feel are deserving, see post #1393202 and post #1415194 (Marisa in her HM costume, which is again extremely hard to find without said tag). post #1418327 (Marisa in an embellished version of her costume). post #1431868 (Ichirin in her HM palettes). post #1395908 is interesting, since it includes just one mistake in her hair ribbon design, but everything else matches HM, including a reference to the focus on her legs in the game, but is one I let go

References to HM I tagged recently include post #1428930 (Kokoro scenario reference), post #1430345 (Mamizou's spellcard), post #1431159 and post #1432654 (Futo's entrance and Kokoro's victory pose), among other edits.

As for other games when this could be used, there's Marisa's blue costume in SA that could be tagged with subterranean_animism, and Marisa in her undefined fantastic object costume, which are both distinct enough to identify, but hard to search for. In the case of UFO Marisa kirisame_marisa apron just gives you, well, Marisa in any old costume of hers w/ apron instead of her UFO costume. S1eth brought up everyone's scarfed costume in PCB, too, which could be tagged with some discretion. Reimu or Sanae are remarkably more difficult since they change so little, but if there's significant reason to, they should get the same treatment.

Frankly, short of kumoi_ichirin_(hopeless_masquerade), kirisame_marisa_(curiosities_of_lotus_asia),kirisame_marisa_(undefined_fantastic_object), kirisame_marisa_(hopeless_masquerade) like Pixiv sometiems uses, or similar, I think we could stand to tag any irregular, uncommon costume with the tag of the work it appears in, even when there are other factors with which to identify them. I'm sort of on the fence with Ichirin since it has just about become her regular costume and has the potential to bog the tag down, and can be searched for with kesa kumoi_ichirin, but hijiri_byakuren with her prayer beads and ajirogasa or Mamizou's leaf hat? Totally absolutely.

Bottom line, cast image, reference, parody, costumes... short of finding another, better way to properly categorize and separate official alternate costumes so that they're easier to find, should all be fair game for Touhou game titles.

UTW said:
cast image, reference, parody, costumes... should all be fair game for Touhou game titles.

tl;dr but this is already the policy on touhou from the previous thread. Though you forgot title drops.

Yeah, I forgot about title drops. But the reason I bring it up is simply because it's not consistent, which sends mixed messages and causes a lot of images which deserve a tag to be missed.

So before another back and forth on some of these posts I wanted to see that we're all on one page on these things. As well as whether we should take the same approach with all other characters with identifiable alternate designs in HM. Particularly Ichirin. Like I said, I wouldn't mind. For the sake of consistency and all.

Also, we should change the note in the touhou wiki to reflect the full policy, rather than the one aspect of it.

Updated

Personally I only tag specific game tags for only when the entire cast from said game is in one image. I don't think small cosmetic changes alone are enough reason to tag it that way, but should be noted since I don't really pay attention to the detail that much. For me it was like, oh look Ichirin has a new design pattern, kinda cool I guess, and Marisa has a new... apron. Still, I could kinda see the usefulness of it, but I'm too half-assed to look up every different design changes to figure out which game it came from.

Well, I've typed the whole message once already and my browser sucked it into the void, so I'll keep it shorter this time.
Hopeless Masquerade is a really bad case since some people seem to believe that Hata no Kokoro automatically qualifies a post for the HM tag.

title:
every image with the game title in it

cast image:
full cast of bosses (midbosses and playable characters not required), SDM household (without Cirno and Rumia) is not EoSD, Myourenji household without Kogasa or with Kyouko is not UFO. (-> I tag those everyone, useful since you can then filter your search results)
full cast of bosses from stage 1-3 when the demo is released.
full cast of MoF minus Aya (only characters who first appeared in MoF)
cast of playable characters with the correct costume for the game (-> playable command pool)

colors:
yes, if they explicitly showcase the palettes in the game (post #692336).
Otherwise, just use player_2, alternate_color.

costumes:
All characters have a different costume for each game and printwork they appear in.
What would happen if I tagged every image of Reimu with a blue ascot subterranean_animism?
curiosities_of_lotus_asia: Can you find the images that actually reference the source material?
I tag it for cases like this: post #510842, post #210548

UTW said:
I'm sort of on the fence with Ichirin since it has just about become her regular costume and has the potential to bog the tag down, and can be searched for with kesa kumoi_ichirin, but hijiri_byakuren with her prayer beads and ajirogasa or Mamizou's leaf hat? Totally absolutely.

Ichirin will from now on be portrayed in that costume in most images. Tagging the game would dilute the tag. Byakuren, Miko and Mamizou didn't get a new costume. They just got 1 or 2 new accessories which can be tagged if they are present. (ajirogasa, prayer_beads?/necklace?/beads?, cape, hat/leaf_hat?/leaf_on_hat?/jingle_bells) And the images of these character with their new hat/cape that do not reference the game at all will only increase over time.
And why would you tag this: post #1431210 ?

references:

Parodies or scenes directly taken from the source material. Reimu and Yukari in the bamboo forest fighting Mokou (post #1373216)? -> imperishable_night. Dialogue taken from the game (post #424769), etc.
Note that spellcards alone (everything in pool #2607) are usually not enough to tag a game.

UTW said:
References to HM I tagged recently include post #1428930 (Kokoro scenario reference), post #1430345 (Mamizou's spellcard), post #1431159 and post #1432654 (Futo's entrance and Kokoro's victory pose), among other edits

post #1432654: just tag raised_fist
post #1428930: Wht does this reference? I cannot find it.
post #1431159: ....not enough. Just use sparkling_daydream that new tag that we will create for this pose.
post #1430713: only OK because the text on the right reads ๅ‹่€…(winner, victor).

EDIT: I most oppose your most recent addition of the tag to nearly every Kawashiro Nitori image uploaded recently.
post #1423526, post #1423510, post #1422834, post #1431210,
What the hell?

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