Kantai Collection translation question regarding 改二

What's the best way of rendering "改二"?

For those of you not familiar with Kancolle, the girls gets progressively upgraded so their names are something like this:
時雨
時雨改
時雨改二

Our wiki and the Kancolle English wiki uses the following:
Shigure
Shigure Kai
Shigure Kai 2

One problem with this is that if you don't know what "Kai" means then you're SOL (though it's pretty obvious given the context). As far as I can tell this translation isn't used in any notes currently.

I've been using:
Shigure
Shigure Improved
Shigure Improved Mk II

I like to hear what you guys think. All comments and suggestions are welcome.

The 改 kanji (can be pronounced 'arata' or 'kai') means a revision or change for the better. Then 二 obviously means 'two'. So I believe 時雨改二 would be read as Shigure Kai 2.

I always use Jeffrey's Japanese <-> English Dictionary Server to help me out with Japanese words and names, so I highly recommend it as a bookmark.

I think what you're currently using is clear enough.

Other possibilities could include "Shigure Revision Mk II", "Updated Shigure Version 2", "Shigure Revised Version 2", etc.

Benit149 said:

The 改 kanji (can be pronounced 'arata' or 'kai') means a revision or change for the better. Then 二 obviously means 'two'. So I believe 時雨改二 would be read as Shigure Kai 2.

He already knows what it means and how to read it, as he said both of those in his post. He's asking for what the clearest English translation is.

Thanks, Toks. Guess I'll just keep on using what I've been using then. I just hope we don't get to Improved Mk VIII :D

With the new Maya designs maybe we should resuscitate discussions about Kai 2 designs.

We honestly should've started when Yuudachi got her remodel.

Regarding nomenclature, we should use "kai" and not "improved" or "mark" or whatever, based on the "origin language" rule regarding character tags. So using Maya as an example, it would be maya_kai_ni_(kantai_collection). A theoretical Prinz Eugen remodel would be prinz_eugen_zwei or prinz_eugen_drei, whichever one drastically alters her appearance enough to warrant a tag (so no fubuki_kai_ni).

Hillside_Moose said:
whichever one drastically alters her appearance enough to warrant a tag (so no fubuki_kai_ni).

Why not? She has a rather distinct color scheme (black with red stripes vs. blue with white stripes) from the original Fubuki, which would make it worth having a tag IMO.

If someone wants to tag Fubuki Kai Ni, fine by me. Just don't expect the greater population to tag it consistently when the details are so minor, especially when compared to Maya or Yuudachi.

They're more titles than extended names, localization is probably a better choice than romanization as long as we can decide on a nomenclature. Or at the very least use consistent titles to allow the remodels to be searchable regardless of the origin country of the ship.

I suggested going with origin language because it would be consistent with the game, which uses German numbers "zwei" and "drei" for Bismarck right on the card. Logically, this would extend to IJN ships with "kai." It's more convenient for players of the game or wiki lurkers, since that's the remodel names they're likely familiar with.

Hillside_Moose said:

Regarding nomenclature, we should use "kai" and not "improved" or "mark" or whatever, based on the "origin language" rule regarding character tags.

EB said:

Why not? She has a rather distinct color scheme (black with red stripes vs. blue with white stripes) from the original Fubuki, which would make it worth having a tag IMO.

+1 to either.

Though, I think that adding "_(kantai_collection)" to Kai would be somewhat redundant.

Ugh that's a horrible mess I give up already.

While I can see the benefit to having different tags for each version of the girl, it sounds like a major asspain to maintain. Especially since it's presumably follow in te cosplay tag style's footsteps, i.e. all the kai/kai2 posts also having the base character tag. I suppose a secondary general tag for it wouldn't be particularly viable.

I originally went with Mk. II for Kai and Mk. III for Kai Ni in my first few translations for Kancolle-related posts (then Rev. and Rev. 2, momentarily), but as time went on I just use the Japanese transliterations since it's well used among the English fandom anyway (so I can assume that most people would get the meaning).

Plus I think it's more consistent with most style guides for wikis this way, like Panzer IV Ausf. D, instead of Panzer IV Design D.

--

Tagging-wise, I don't think it's feasible, as the differences are minor for some of the remodels. Occasionally some artists will also mix elements of different remodel versions together, whether by mistake or by intent. See post #1948086 . See also Fubuki's design in EP. 10 of the anime, where she has combined elements of both her Kai Ni (AA fire director) and Vanilla/Kai forms (blue and whtie uniform).

I suppose we could go with a general tag, to be used only "when the subject of a Kancolle character's upgrade becomes a prominent focus of the image". Like, say, post #1726126, post #1819799, post #1953455, post #1952691 . Somewhat subjective, yes, but so are tags like breast_envy.

If we have a separate tag for each version, then we're going to be in trouble for certain ships like the Chitose sisters and the Hypers. I don't think it's a good idea, except some whose get totally new names like Vernyi and Ro.

If we do give them new tags, I'd prefer English tags. The "改" or "改二" aren't real parts of their names, they're just there on the card to indicate they got that remodel. Nobody calls Kongo "Kongo kai ni" every time she shows up after getting the second remodel. Same reason as why we don't tag the abyssals as "senkan_ru-kyu" or "kubo_wo-kyuu".

Danbooru policy does support the original language names, but those aren't exactly names. Again, refer to other existing tags like colossal_titan and armored_titan. Granted, there's no official translation and people call it differently, but that's no valid reason not to translate at all.

Lick_King said:

If we have a separate tag for each version, then we're going to be in trouble for certain ships like the Chitose sisters and the Hypers. I don't think it's a good idea, except some whose get totally new names like Vernyi and Ro.

The way I understand it, those would be just additional general tags.

Lick_King said:

If we do give them new tags, I'd prefer English tags. The "改" or "改二" aren't real parts of their names, they're just there on the card to indicate they got that remodel. Nobody calls Kongo "Kongo kai ni" every time she shows up after getting the second remodel. Same reason as why we don't tag the abyssals as "senkan_ru-kyu" or "kubo_wo-kyuu".

Danbooru policy does support the original language names, but those aren't exactly names. Again, refer to other existing tags like colossal_titan and armored_titan. Granted, there's no official translation and people call it differently, but that's no valid reason not to translate at all.

Problem with translation is there's multiple ways to translate depending on the translator's mood: upgraded, improved, revised, revision, mark, version, advancement, etc. At least with kai it's common ground most fans should know since the game (and thus the Kancolle wiki) uses it.

It's already kind of a pain tagging a lot of these things, especially since so few people tag these things properly, as it stands... (Show of hands, how many of you are properly tagging the neckerchief, hairclip, pleated_skirt, black_serafuku, parted_bangs, hair_flaps, etc. on Yuudachi as she stands, now...)

I mean, generally speaking, this is just the same character with slightly more frills on her dress, anyway. New Maya is just Maya with a hat. You want Yuudachi's kai ni? Hairclip and Yuudachi_(Kantai_Collection). (Or hair_flaps and Yuudachi_(Kantai_Collection)... But notice how they produce different results?)

That's not even starting on the fact that most of them are either identical or nearly identical in any event. If they aren't wearing their turrets, (and in most art of them, they aren't,) the Kongous are different only in how silly their headgear looks. I don't see why anyone would go out of their way to search for one over the other when there isn't enough difference that I could even remember off-hand whether a given image was a kai-ni version of Kongou or not when it's from a series I do enjoy...

Hillside_Moose said:

Problem with translation is there's multiple ways to translate depending on the translator's mood: upgraded, improved, revised, revision, mark, version, advancement, etc. At least with kai it's common ground most fans should know since the game (and thus the Kancolle wiki) uses it.

And this is the forum post trying to decide the common way to translate 改二. Being a translator myself, I'm always against not translating a word that's fully translatable just because fans couldn't agree on a translation. I mean, sure they do mostly call it kai ni as per the wiki, but how many of them would not be able to understand that "Mk. II" or "second remodel" would mean the same thing? It's not like they even use original language names like kaiso and kindaikakaishu either.