Well, can't say this is an ideal ending to the match, but strangely, I find it acceptable. Maybe it's because the Hell's team did this themselves rather then be defeated via Sakuya's plot armour.
But seriously, what is Suika on about? I don't get it.
I don't know what all this talk about plot armor is about seeing how the last match THIS even was Eientei vs Mokou/Keine.
And the more I think about it, the less and less upset I am over Sanae's victories; as A) she ends up helping the other person in their life and B) ends up going through hellish recovery sessions in the end. I'm almost dreading the thrashing she's sure to get in her next match.
I think at this point the most authentically dangerous team that does not have oni is Reimu/Remilia; once they're on the ball, not even those who went through training from hell can stand against them for long.
Now that things so far as fully translated I realized other things about the matches.
Ran/Chen vs Yuugi/Orin: Ran's considerably weakened by the whole no magic thing (and too things too lightly to consider reinforcement techs like the humans) Looking back now, I'd say the shikigamis were in real trouble with how Yuugi and Orin were motivated beyond petty things.
Reimu/Remi vs Ghost/Rabbit: All sorts of dirty tricks were used but once Remi and Reimu started working as a team, it ended FAST. I don't think any future opponent of theirs will be so lucky.
The Kaguya vs Mokou Match: Sure there was some underhanded stuff, but the Kinnikuman was strongest there and in the end Kaguya was a good sport about winning. The now formed Kaguya/Mokou could be a contender if they work as a team.
The three humans that have fought have used some kind of reinforcement ability on themselves (Reimu and Sanae using their innate spiritual power; so far it seems Reimu's doing a better job with it, and Sakuya uses thin time spot field to mostly reduce damage from blows) Marisa's extra training might help her learn a similar ability.
As far as Meiling/Flan vs Moriya? The ultimate end result of teams isn't quite known, but that just about everyone took considerable damage. If there's a team change, the results would be interesting and it might save Meiling from the humiliation of being the joke character yet again.
This match? Overall very even but with Sakuya learning a lesson about teamwork. The supporting groups of both sides did well in canceling each other out. The Hell team's motivations are revealed and are willing to quit if Okuu and Tenshi could replace them. How this plays out, no one knows yet.
Okuu/Tenshi could be a strong if flawed team. There's a very strong bird brain, and a spoiled yet very durable celestial.
Overall human order is Reimu (Experienced, strong, motivated as hell), Sakuya (similar but not quite as power as Reimu), Sanae (New girl learning as she goes along; does makeshift therapy as she fights, often at great cost); Marisa's an unknown.
StriderTuna said: I don't know what all this talk about plot armor is about seeing how the last match THIS even was Eientei vs Mokou/Keine.
Because Sakuya should have been utterly crushed by Rin. She literally should have not stood any chance as a human.
And the more I think about it, the less and less upset I am over Sanae's victories; as A) she ends up helping the other person in their life and B) ends up going through hellish recovery sessions in the end. I'm almost dreading the thrashing she's sure to get in her next match.
It was not Sanae as much as the fact that Flandre was more or less useless and it pretty much ended with her still being useless while "learning a lesson". That left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people.
Also Meiling not advancing considering this is where she should excel and it being left up to a vote was a bit... irritating.
I think at this point the most authentically dangerous team that does not have oni is Reimu/Remilia; once they're on the ball, not even those who went through training from hell can stand against them for long.
In the match now... hard to say. Sanae could match Reimu and Suwako could match Remilia.
Now that things so far as fully translated I realized other things about the matches.
Ran/Chen vs Yuugi/Orin: Ran's considerably weakened by the whole no magic thing (and too things too lightly to consider reinforcement techs like the humans) Looking back now, I'd say the shikigamis were in real trouble with how Yuugi and Orin were motivated beyond petty things.
That's somewhat debatable since Shikigami's should not be affected anymore then anyone else. It would depend on the nature of the power they were trying to use.
Reimu/Remi vs Ghost/Rabbit: All sorts of dirty tricks were used but once Remi and Reimu started working as a team, it ended FAST. I don't think any future opponent of theirs will be so lucky.
Other teams will have far physically stronger members (S&S)/other "non barrier" abilities (nuclear fusion?)
The Kaguya vs Mokou Match: Sure there was some underhanded stuff, but the Kinnikuman was strongest there and in the end Kaguya was a good sport about winning. The now formed Kaguya/Mokou could be a contender if they work as a team.
It just went on too long.
The three humans that have fought have used some kind of reinforcement ability on themselves (Reimu and Sanae using their innate spiritual power; so far it seems Reimu's doing a better job with it, and Sakuya uses thin time spot field to mostly reduce damage from blows) Marisa's extra training might help her learn a similar ability.
This is plot armourish in that it allows humans not to be utterly crushed when they should be getting beat down. It is to be expected and Sakuya's was in fact the most cheesy since it required so much skill to use and was "DBZed" in there.
Really Sakuya should have been completely slapped around by Rin considering she would have the strength and speed advantage over Sakuya.
We didn't want to win is kinda weak.
As far as Meiling/Flan vs Moriya? The ultimate end result of teams isn't quite known, but that just about everyone took considerable damage. If there's a team change, the results would be interesting and it might save Meiling from the humiliation of being the joke character yet again.
Suwako + Meiling... Scary powerful. I still don't like the fact that Flan really didn't seem to learn anything much from Meiling. She should have been better then that.
This match? Overall very even but with Sakuya learning a lesson about teamwork.
As I say, Sakuya survived because of plot armour. She should have been badly beaten by Rin but had to "win" in order to learn her lesson.
The fact that Zerii has continually harped on the teamwork aspect means she has to have her "I worked as a team" glorious match. Only Suika's odd comments make one wonder if it will be a guaranteed win.
The supporting groups of both sides did well in canceling each other out. The Hell team's motivations are revealed and are willing to quit if Okuu and Tenshi could replace them. How this plays out, no one knows yet.
Until this motivation stuff it was also the only really interesting part of the fight.
Okuu/Tenshi could be a strong if flawed team. There's a very strong bird brain, and a spoiled yet very durable celestial.
The comic relief.
Overall human order is Reimu (Experienced, strong, motivated as hell), Sakuya (similar but not quite as power as Reimu), Sanae (New girl learning as she goes along; does makeshift therapy as she fights, often at great cost); Marisa's an unknown.
If you just compare the 3 vs each other I agree.
If it is Human vs non human I vastly disagree here. Reimu > Sanae >>>>>>>>>>>> Sakuya as far as power goes. Both Miko's can make a real barrier, Sakuya can only with great concentration make a small one just as attacks come.
Since every non human of any note is going to be a hell of a lot stronger (physically) then Sakuya and in most cases faster to boot, she is at a massive disadvantage.
I just gotta ask Scarlet 200%...did you REALLY expect Reimu,Sanae,Marisa,and Sakuya,some of the communities favorite characters,to be slapped around for what you think is realistic?
Of COURSE all the humans got Plot Armor in your logic. Without it the outcome would of been as obvious as you said. They needed SOMETHING to have equal footing with the demons...and lets face it,it probably woulda been even less fun to watch. Just imagine Sanae's fights without any comeback.
I don't think his issue is really that the characters have plot armor but rather that it's done in such a blatantly obvious manner that you can't help but think that Jelly favors said-characters in a lopsided manner. (Sanae accused of being perhaps the worst offender out of them all by a long shot.)
As far as "Sanae's fights without any comeback" goes, Suwako should've been the one that got her team the wins, since she's at least on three of their opponents playing fields (if not higher). I don't know how powerful Rin actually is, so Sakuya might have had a fighting chance against her, but this match still felt like an asspull and made it blatantly obvious that her and Suika's going to win in the rematch.
JS2057 said: I just gotta ask Scarlet 200%...did you REALLY expect Reimu,Sanae,Marisa,and Sakuya,some of the communities favorite characters,to be slapped around for what you think is realistic?
Considering one of the basic concepts of the tournament was to vastly limit special powers... yes. It would be nice to see in a situation where some of the strongest characters should be anything but... actually be sorta weak.
Making it such that they can match anyone easily more or less kills the possibility of an outcome that does not have Reimu/Marisa/Sakuya/Sanae in it.
Of COURSE all the humans got Plot Armor in your logic. Without it the outcome would of been as obvious as you said. They needed SOMETHING to have equal footing with the demons...and lets face it,it probably woulda been even less fun to watch. Just imagine Sanae's fights without any comeback.
Actually it would be nice for once for the shoe to be on the other foot. Character balance in this comic should have been vastly different. As it stands it is the same old thing. It is somewhat tedious.
Anyway Reimu + Sanae using barriers is not that bad, the whole Sakuya time stop crap and Rin seemingly being barely more agile (even if one could argue that Rin would not be physically stronger) then a human was a bit too much.
I can accept Sanae doing what she did in her match against Meiling/Flan since it was Suwako who actually did most of the damage. Sanae got smacked around pretty good and while it came down to a popularity vote it wasn't that bad.
Really the compliant comes from how weak flandre was. Admittedly a useful flandre + meiling combo would have been a really nasty team but flandre could have been a little less of a suck.
Now the fight vs Yuuka it was really cheesy.
Every once and awhile it would be nice to see a few unexpected wins by "the other guys"
Scarlet200% said: Every once and awhile it would be nice to see a few unexpected wins by "the other guys"
This, if there are going to be rules than basically limit the main characters strong points, i expect other characters to get the spotlight, not a bunch of plot holes/excusses so the main characters can win again
I wouldn't say the "def and/or str" use of their abilities is precisely unfair; as they lack their strongest moves, and are left with what Melee skills they have. Reimu isn't exactly weak in that area as one can see in the fighting games. Sanae's the only questionable one out of the three humans just due to how her fights went and her experience level compared to Reimu and Sakuya's.
That being said, one of the Two Oni would not be easy foes for anyone.
As far Flandre and Meiling? Asides from a kinda fishy popularity vote, it was a Pretty strong Youkai and a emotionally unstable vampire loli against an Old School God and her Miko.
Flan's considerable power was greatly offset by her very child like mindset, putting her at a disadvantage against Suwako. In such a competition, it seems those two gods can easily give the strongest a run for their money. Meiling was in control against Sanae, but against Suwako, it was a very dire mismatch. Suwako I see as a rather vicious heel, partially thanks to fighting Yuuka. Sanae in contrast is going the path of the face therapist as of recent things. Yeah I felt it was a cheap shot at Meiling to put her at such a disadvantage in her first match. The "Useless China" jokes get boring after a while, more so in a competition where she ought to be pretty strong.
And in general fan materials, Sanae's seen as the weaker Miko and the gods while being powerful, aren't exceptionally so. This rather subverts that to a degree, more so with the fact that Yuuka was at a disadvantage against Suwako if they fought on even ground. (Typically, it'd be a rather easy win for Yuuka.)
Not anywhere as well as Gensokyo Tag Tournament, where expectations are often turned upside down in awesome ways.
Do remember with Reimu and Remilia is that A) Reimu's a very experienced incident resolver, even in terms of melee combat, that and she's motivated. and B) Vampires are known for being strong and that Remilia's speciality IS melee. In a match up with the Moriya team, I'd give it to the Reimu/Remi team unless one of the two does something stupid like in their first match. Due to Moriya getting two matches, the other teams got a better chance at seeing how they fight while with Reimu's team, there wasn't much to see as how fast the fight went.
As far as the latest match, Orin isn't exactly noted to be exceptionally strong at all (just persistent), meaning in a thing like this she'd out match the weaklings but not overpower those of notable strength. Hence why she was just an annoyance to Suika and Ran and "Shikigami bonded" Chen had her on the ropes. Orin's major advantage is Satori's commands, but once that's disabled, it's downhill for her. Sakuya's time stop "Barrier" was actually a must for say dealing with Yuugi. And I got the feeling that it'd still be pretty close.
Something I find suspicious is A) Yukari messing with the order of the tournaments and B) How the Higan team and Marisa team have yet to get a single match while Moriya and Underground got two. This may be a at putting those two VERY successful teams at an ultimate disadvantage (the Hell team far more so than the Moriya team)
Also, It's a VERY good thing both Kanako and Suwako didn't form a team; I doubt even teams with Oni would have been a match for them. Suwako no doubt knew this and decided to go with Sanae (The very inexperienced Miko of hers).
Alguien said: This, if there are going to be rules than basically limit the main characters strong points, i expect other characters to get the spotlight, not a bunch of plot holes/excusses so the main characters can win again
It's funny, the other somewhat-similar comic, also about a Touhou Tag Tournament, but without removing Danmaku and such, has actually had more unexpected wins and upsets than this, with all its goofy rules, so far.
PurpleXVI said: It's funny, the other somewhat-similar comic, also about a Touhou Tag Tournament, but without removing Danmaku and such, has actually had more unexpected wins and upsets than this, with all its goofy rules, so far.
So very true, since even abilities themselves are used in interesting ways. (Typically one'd say Suika/Aya would win over Kanako/Hina, but they forgot the part about Hina controlling misfortune. That and Kanako using a KOed Suika as a weapon)
But some forget that Suwako's sheer power is defying the typical fan material cliches.
As far as the latest match, Orin isn't exactly noted to be exceptionally strong at all (just persistent), meaning in a thing like this she'd out match the weaklings but not overpower those of notable strength. Hence why she was just an annoyance to Suika and Ran and "Shikigami bonded" Chen had her on the ropes. Orin's major advantage is Satori's commands, but once that's disabled, it's downhill for her. Sakuya's time stop "Barrier" was actually a must for say dealing with Yuugi. And I got the feeling that it'd still be pretty close.
On the other side Sakuya has more or less no physical skills outside of chucking knives. At worst Rin should have been no stronger then Sakuya physically but still a hell of a lot more agile.
The thing with Sakuya is if you look at all of her abilities it is all danmaku unlike many of the other combatants.
Also, It's a VERY good thing both Kanako and Suwako didn't form a team; I doubt even teams with Oni would have been a match for them. Suwako no doubt knew this and decided to go with Sanae (The very inexperienced Miko of hers).
It will be interesting to see if Suwako is "stronger" then an Oni Diva. No one really has figured out where Vampire/God/Oni end up in the strength department.
Who to say that Sakuya doesn't? Last I checked, she was pretty decent in the fighting games. And the SDM knowing Danmaku is a pretty recent thing compared to most of the cast. From what I've seen, Sakuya uses chops and such to make up for the lack of knives, and whatever she lacks in power she makes up in precision. And against Yuugi, she was basically buying time for Suika to recover. She's stronger on defense than offense.
Orin's general combat ability sans danmaku is not notable at all, to hold up against Ran and Sakuya she either relied on Satori's help or took advantage of openings. She had no better luck against Suika. Her evasive abilities are remarkable seeing how she avoided Suika's attacks.
Out of the two Sakuya's the accurate one while Suika has power.
As far as Suwako's power compared to Onis and Vampires? Considering the fact she was rather even with Yuuka (who's noted for her oft forgotten preference for melee and considered one of the S ranked characters, up there with the two Oni)
As far as Flandre; it was a mindset advantage; all the power in the world does you little good if your mindset is that of a little girl. That and Flandre was also new to melee combat unlike her much more experienced sister. I think she'd be rather even against Remilia (another melee specialist)
And Kanako's confirmed for about even with Yuugi during the ring test. Suwako's a bit weaker if anything than Kanako.
A reminder of the other match ups (determined by a Gatcha machine; though I think the Oni vs Oni match up was a set up) just so no one doesn't have to reread the whole thing.
Reimu/Remi vs Marisa/Nitori - Will Marisa's training and Mima's advice be enough to offsuch such a difference in strength (Marisa and Nitori took this too lightly)
Eientei vs Higan - Could go either way... and I wonder if A) the whole Kaguya/Mokou team up fell through or B) Jelly forgot about that when he did the comic in question. It showed both Kaguya and Eirin; no sign of Mokou. This looks to be pretty even, seeing how Shikieiki is a fellow reader of the manga and all.
StriderTuna said: Who to say that Sakuya doesn't? Last I checked, she was pretty decent in the fighting games.
Even in the fighting games almost all of her attacks are knives. She has some generic melee moves but they are few and far between.
Orin's general combat ability sans danmaku is not notable at all, to hold up against Ran and Sakuya she either relied on Satori's help or took advantage of openings. She had no better luck against Suika. Her evasive abilities are remarkable seeing how she avoided Suika's attacks.
Comparing Ran and Suika to Sukuya is a bit silly. One is a extremely powerful Shikigami and the other is a Oni Diva. Sakuya is human and humans are intrinsically at a disadvantage vs Youkai.
Without time stop and knives she is basically nothing special.
As far as Suwako's power compared to Onis and Vampires? Considering the fact she was rather even with Yuuka (who's noted for her oft forgotten preference for melee and considered one of the S ranked characters, up there with the two Oni)
She got her head beat in by Yuuka. The only time she was matched with her is when she was cheating and still ended up on the floor.
Again no one has really done a true comparison, that is canonically.
As far as Flandre; it was a mindset advantage; all the power in the world does you little good if your mindset is that of a little girl. That and Flandre was also new to melee combat unlike her much more experienced sister. I think she'd be rather even against Remilia (another melee specialist)
As portrayed in this comic. Flandre is innocent of her strength but not actually childish
And Kanako's confirmed for about even with Yuugi during the ring test. Suwako's a bit weaker if anything than Kanako.
Suwako's a lot weaker and Kanako (depending on how you want to interpret Kanako's victory over Suwako. Also yuugi being a one horned Oni should have been a lot weaker then Suika.
Remember I am looking at the cannon not at the artist interpretation.
You forgot in the match, it was mainly after Suwako got frosted by Cirno; later on after she recovered, she was more on par with Yuuka.
And she is pretty childish, such as her reaction to to Suwako's sudden assault was to ball up and cry with out much real trying to fight back. And that interview is canon, not Orange Jelly fanon.
it's generally implied Kanako won via a dirty trick or two, otherwise they're rather even. And the whole "Horns=power" thing is fanon.
StriderTuna said: You forgot in the match, it was mainly after Suwako got frosted by Cirno; later on after she recovered, she was more on par with Yuuka.
Well to be fair she fought for a short time on par (after cheating with the iron knuckles and poison spit) but got tossed around badly at the end.
Yuuka in the still completely dominated Suwako when she got pissed off. It was a lot like Suwako vs Meiling after the Dragon Uppercut.
And she is pretty childish, such as her reaction to to Suwako's sudden assault was to ball up and cry with out much real trying to fight back.
Her acting like a child is just Jelly spin. It was in every possible sense the exact opposite of her character.
And that interview is canon, not Orange Jelly fanon.
Yes both those things I listed were canon and neither for a moment imply she is childish. In fact they show the opposite. She is quite with it when she is talking about Remilia and the incident.
She is emotionally unstable not childish.
it's generally implied Kanako won via a dirty trick or two, otherwise they're rather even.
Her profile says Kanako won via causing her weapons to rust; there was no true clash of strength between them.
Yuuka resorted to the Cirno trick because Suwako was so strong. (In the field Yuuka drove her off because Suwako was more concerned about frogs, and Yuuka realized in a straight out fight, she'd do poorly) And in the second part, Yuuka basically ignores the damage that Suwako's attacks were doing just to go on the counter attack. There's good reason why Yuuka's known as the USC.
And My point was that Flan in TTD is childish; not in the canon. Orenji's a bit too fond of some fanons, such as childish moe Flan.
Onis specialize in their strength for sure, but that's never to say their danmaku is weak. (if anything in a real fight, they'd know no real magic) Gods of Suwako and Kanako's level are no slouches there either (that can't be said of the Akis).
StriderTuna said: Her profile says Kanako won via causing her weapons to rust; there was no true clash of strength between them.
Well divine strength.
Yuuka resorted to the Cirno trick because Suwako was so strong. (In the field Yuuka drove her off because Suwako was more concerned about frogs, and Yuuka realized in a straight out fight, she'd do poorly) And in the second part, Yuuka basically ignores the damage that Suwako's attacks were doing just to go on the counter attack. There's good reason why Yuuka's known as the USC.
I would say it was more that it was not worth her effort then any actual concern on her part. At no point did Yuuka show any real concern with fighting Suwako. At worst she was getting irritated.
And My point was that Flan in TTD is childish; not in the canon. Orenji's a bit too fond of some fanons, such as childish moe Flan.
Well the points I was making regarding flan and Rin (specifically) is how they should be conically. Flan and Rin both should have preformed much better then they did in this sort of tournament.
I can't try to argue how things turn out based on Zerii balance.
Onis specialize in their strength for sure, but that's never to say their danmaku is weak. (if anything in a real fight, they'd know no real magic) Gods of Suwako and Kanako's level are no slouches there either (that can't be said of the Akis).
More or less I just read up on Suika and how Oni are implied to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone in physical strength. Danmaku would be more of a toss up since they are very strong but don't focus on it as much.
Still it's not a true test, Suwako surrendered in respect of such a power and to perhaps bring a clean end to the war. (Kanako needed her help in the end anyways)
Canonically, Orin doesn't seem to have much of note than a massive meddling streak (second to Alice in times you're attacked by her in a game) SA starts because she tried calling for help as opposed to handling it herself.
Danmaku seem to more than just mere magic (Some of them involve throwing rocks)
The comments give me the impression that a lot of people don't know much about Kinnikuman. Plot armor, cheesy moral victories, ass pulls, over-long fights... it's pretty damn good at being a tribute!
XCN said: The comments give me the impression that a lot of people don't know much about Kinnikuman. Plot armor, cheesy moral victories, ass pulls, over-long fights... it's pretty damn good at being a tribute!
But it's not quite Touhou then, as it's crossing too much into Kinnikuman territory.
StriderTuna said: But it's not quite Touhou then, as it's crossing too much into Kinnikuman territory.
...Seriously?
You're saying following too closely to the story the entire doujin is based on makes the town bicycle of Japanese fandom not like what it "should be"? Touhou fandom is made off of people making shit up about the characters, and you folks are going to sperg about canon?
Added error tag because Suika's red hair bow is missing in Panel 2 even though it appears in Panels 1 and 4.
I have promised to carry us to victory.I will show them all.Say no words right nowI'm sorry.I...Really?
It's a good thing you noticed.It's not about forgiving.An Oni does not lie.Just you see.Episode 544: It's Up to Oneself to Stand AgainFrom the Artist's Pixiv pageIf there's anything I can do to help you achieve this, say it.Will you forgive me?There is also my own ego. As if I would just allow it to end like that....have been wrong.