I'm sorry, but to love-ru is becomming a full on hentai at this point. the series literally has no plot, or no point of being there, but just for gratuitous fanservice, and the creppy incest, and underage nudity that's in this series is unsettling. Why this series is still runing, is beyond me.
I'm sorry, but to love-ru is becomming a full on hentai at this point. the series literally has no plot, or no point of being there, but just for gratuitous fanservice, and the creppy incest, and underage nudity that's in this series is unsettling. Why this series is still runing, is beyond me.
The "why" part is rather simple, because it's still making money and is holding a healthy popularity in Shonen Jump's polls, which of course says a lot about many things both for the publishers, the audience, and how the word 'shonen' as a genre basically doesn't have any meaning anymore.
I don't find that too surprising, given how half of every anime seasons ever since 2010 seems to be moe or harem animes. It may be a tad vexing to see how the industry had degraded to paying money to these unskilled writers but in the end the publishers don't really care about anything as long as they make the cash. So basically I would say the consumers are the one at fault here.
What I do find surprising though is how there seems to be no parental controversy surrounding To Love-Ru, despite its current pornographic contents being printed on a magazine any friggin 5 years old can buy at any convenience store.
The "why" part is rather simple, because it's still making money and is holding a healthy popularity in Shonen Jump's polls, which of course says a lot about many things both for the publishers, the audience, and how the word 'shonen' as a genre basically doesn't have any meaning anymore.
I don't find that too surprising, given how half of every anime seasons ever since 2010 seems to be moe or harem animes. It may be a tad vexing to see how the industry had degraded to paying money to these unskilled writers but in the end the publishers don't really care about anything as long as they make the cash. So basically I would say the consumers are the one at fault here.
What I do find surprising though is how there seems to be no parental controversy surrounding To Love-Ru, despite its current pornographic contents being printed on a magazine any friggin 5 years old can buy at any convenience store.
I do think that any author should make whatever content they would like, but To Love-Ru seriously has no point to it. Not only that, it really dosen't convey sexuality in a mature, or even thought provoking way. Sexual imagery is just there for the sake of titilation, and that doesn't make the work mature, or adult. The fact that this was in shounen jump astounds me, and it really should have been put on a more adult mag. But the real thing that gets me, is the fact that most of these characters don't even look high school aged, which is even more creepy. This whole issue of pedophilia in most Japanese comics is unsettling to me. I know the age of consent in Japan is 13, but it still dosen't sit right with me, when underaged girls are being objectifyed as fap material to forever alones, and otaku.
Don't think of this as some dumb westerner from the US, giving his holier-than-thou opinion of this stuff, there are plenty of Japanese citzens who think this stuff is also creepy. What I find interesting, is the fact that in most Japanese comics, movies, tv shows, video games, and music, is that the younger the protaganist is, the more good, and pure they are, while the older the character is, the more evil, and sinister they are. This is especially true for females. How many female characters in anime have you seen, where the younger female protaganists are the good guys, while the older ones are the evil, and cold hearted bitches? It's like being above the legal age, automatically makes you the bad guy by default.
While yes, anyone should have the freedom to write whatever the hell they want, I think it is the industry's job to filter what is acceptable for the market and what is not. Unfortunately, this 'filtering' process had not been about the quality of the work, but how much money a piece of writing can make, which in turns allowed unskilled writers who can only write self-gratifying titilations to have a standing job while milking money out of the audiences who are growing constantly shallower and shallower as a result.
True that this "shallow audience group" is in fact a minority that is not limited to Japan(every country has smart people and dumb people), and indeed only the animes with solid writings such as Shingeki no Kyojin or Madoka can make it to the epitome of popularity, but it doesn't change the fact that the anime industry is still degrading into a more "quantity over quality" mindset than the reverse, given the oversaturation of moe, harem and ecchi animes, mangas, LNs, and games that are currently on the market.
The kimo-ota demographic may indeed be the minority, but they are the ones far more willing to pour out their wallets to the creators than your average fan of something like say, One Piece. That's why it's no mystery why a considerable amount of creators also want to cater to this demographic instead of aiming to make colossal hits with higher risks.
As for the age problem again the solution is simple: the kimo-ota demographic likes younger girls and is closed minded on self-centered delusions. That's why not only that you often see adult women being antagonized, but it also make the ramble about woman older than 19 being called "hag" a common occurrence in the anime fandom along with some other examples of the common self-gratifying logic such as "yuri is the purest form of love" or "cute justifies everything".
That is made much creepier when you realize that most writers of these shallow LNs, mangas and animes are well in their late 30s and some in their 40s. While their target demographics may have a wider range of ages, the fact that the creators are not "sex-obsessed teenagers" but people who should have been in the "responsible adult" years is rather baffling.
Also you might want to consider shortening the content in each quotes just so every quotations won't be so friggin long.
While yes, anyone should have the freedom to write whatever the hell they want, I think it is the industry's job to filter what is acceptable for the market and what is not. Unfortunately, this 'filtering' process had not been about the quality of the work, but how much money a piece of writing can make, which in turns allowed unskilled writers who can only write self-gratifying titilations to have a standing job while milking money out of the audiences who are growing constantly shallower and shallower as a result.
True that this "shallow audience group" is in fact a minority that is not limited to Japan(every country has smart people and dumb people), and indeed only the animes with solid writings such as Shingeki no Kyojin or Madoka can make it to the epitome of popularity, but it doesn't change the fact that the anime industry is still degrading into a more "quantity over quality" mindset than the reverse, given the oversaturation of moe, harem and ecchi animes, mangas, LNs, and games that are currently on the market.
The kimo-ota demographic may indeed be the minority, but they are the ones far more willing to pour out their wallets to the creators than your average fan of something like say, One Piece. That's why it's no mystery why a considerable amount of creators also want to cater to this demographic instead of aiming to make colossal hits with higher risks.
As for the age problem again the solution is simple: the kimo-ota demographic likes younger girls and is closed minded on self-centered delusions. That's why not only that you often see adult women being antagonized, but it also make the ramble about woman older than 19 being called "hag" a common occurrence in the anime fandom along with some other examples of the common self-gratifying logic such as "yuri is the purest form of love" or "cute justifies everything".
That is made much creepier when you realize that most writers of these shallow LNs, mangas and animes are well in their late 30s and some in their 40s. While their target demographics may have a wider range of ages, the fact that the creators are not "sex-obsessed teenagers" but people who should have been in the "responsible adult" years is rather baffling.
Also you might want to consider shortening the content in each quotes just so every quotations won't be so friggin long.
You sound like a prude who's got a bone to pick with otaku just because they enjoy what you don't. You types always have to be loud and annoying just to get your points across and look down on those who don't agree with your standards don't you?
You sound like a prude who's got a bone to pick with otaku just because they enjoy what you don't. You types always have to be loud and annoying just to get your points across and look down on those who don't agree with your standards don't you?
I'm okay with having a few of these "shallow animes" floating around. Yes, everyone is allowed to enjoy whatever the hell they want as long as its not actually breaking the law such as rape or murder. Problem is I am NOT okay when this type of anime becomes the majority and subsequently, the stereotype that represents as a whole, the media that I love.
It's like how gamers hate it when everyone blame games for real life violence and crime, I hate how people are coming to see anime fans as perverted shutins because of the growth of this genre's success.
This type of genre of objectifying girls for the sake of pleasing male demographics and objectifying guys for the sake of pleasing female demographics is not only self-centered, it is cheap and stupid. Yet the authors who worked hard into thinking their solid plots get the same amount of pay as some idiots who don't know how to do anything else but put lolis and boobs on the pages of his works.
What I'm essentially saying is these anime genres are basically the Japanese genderflipped version of Twilight. Isn't it hypocritical that while almost everyone frowns on the self-gratifying, objectification of men in Stephanie Meyer's writings, many of those exact same people cherishes the self-gratifying, objectification of women in animes? If you disagree then why don't you try give me some reasons why a typical harem anime isn't just a simple genderswap of Twilight then?
Am I a prude? Yes why I am indeed, but I believe that if the otakus aren't the louder ones, I wouldn't be caring about them enough to even want to be vocal about it. This is beyond simply "hating on what I don't like", I'm hating on the effects of it more than the animes themselves.
It's less about being a "louder" voice and more money talks. Kids who are into Naruto and the like basically always need to beg their parents for 1 new toy. An otaku will spend upwards to 1000$ per month on his favorite figurines, body pillows and Blu-rays.
If it's 10 kids vs 10 adult otakus, who do you think the companies will try to sell to? Money always talks,and otaku's seem to pull money out of thin air to pay for their hobbies.
I'm okay with having a few of these "shallow animes" floating around. Yes, everyone is allowed to enjoy whatever the hell they want as long as its not actually breaking the law such as rape or murder. Problem is I am NOT okay when this type of anime becomes the majority and subsequently, the stereotype that represents as a whole, the media that I love.
It's like how gamers hate it when everyone blame games for real life violence and crime, I hate how people are coming to see anime fans as perverted shutins because of the growth of this genre's success.
This type of genre of objectifying girls for the sake of pleasing male demographics and objectifying guys for the sake of pleasing female demographics is not only self-centered, it is cheap and stupid. Yet the authors who worked hard into thinking their solid plots get the same amount of pay as some idiots who don't know how to do anything else but put lolis and boobs on the pages of his works.
What I'm essentially saying is these anime genres are basically the Japanese genderflipped version of Twilight. Isn't it hypocritical that while almost everyone frowns on the self-gratifying, objectification of men in Stephanie Meyer's writings, many of those exact same people cherishes the self-gratifying, objectification of women in animes? If you disagree then why don't you try give me some reasons why a typical harem anime isn't just a simple genderswap of Twilight then?
Am I a prude? Yes why I am indeed, but I believe that if the otakus aren't the louder ones, I wouldn't be caring about them enough to even want to be vocal about it. This is beyond simply "hating on what I don't like", I'm hating on the effects of it more than the animes themselves.
Typical rhetoric of minority mentality. You can bark and whine all you want, but what Tetsamaru posted is pretty much true. If you want the kinds of anime made more often, put your money where your mouth is. Anime is a business first. "Artistical integrity" comes second. Also, I honestly fail to see the connection harems have anything to do with "genderswap Twilight", given the latter's premise as a love triangle which a harem is not.
And I suppose you were under the delusion the entire medium wasn't inundated with boobies before because you grew up watching cherry-picked shows catering to the "politically correct" West. I personally have no qualms about the industry's direction since I happen to like the current trends and this is coming from someone who grew up watching "profound" and "deep" series and still enjoy them. It may be hard to believe but there are some fans who like shows like Qwaser and DxD as much as Psycho-Pass and Anohana to the same degree.
What differs from you and me is I know and learn how to adapt to the times and enjoy what it offers. You, on the other hand, are stuck in the rut and unless you change your mindset, will forever be in sour grapes mode.
Typical rhetoric of minority mentality. You can bark and whine all you want, but what Tetsamaru posted is pretty much true. If you want the kinds of anime made more often, put your money where your mouth is. Anime is a business first. "Artistical integrity" comes second. Also, I honestly fail to see the connection harems have anything to do with "genderswap Twilight", given the latter's premise as a love triangle which a harem is not.
And I suppose you were under the delusion the entire medium wasn't inundated with boobies before because you grew up watching cherry-picked shows catering to the "politically correct" West. I personally have no qualms about the industry's direction since I happen to like the current trends and this is coming from someone who grew up watching "profound" and "deep" series and still enjoy them. It may be hard to believe but there are some fans who like shows like Qwaser and DxD as much as Psycho-Pass and Anohana to the same degree.
What differs from you and me is I know and learn how to adapt to the times and enjoy what it offers. You, on the other hand, are stuck in the rut and unless you change your mindset, will forever be in sour grapes mode.
This quote is why the anime industry is in the gutter right now, becasue the main demographic dosen't even know what quality animation anymore. There's only so many times you can see a pair of breasts, before you start to get sick of them. The term fanservice, has lost it's meaning. Hell, I can't even show my family any Japanese anime anymore, becasue most of it is okatu fap material. This is why western animation is kicking anime's ass, as of recently. You have the Legend of Korra, Shezow, Garvity Falls, Motor City, Samurai Jack, Friendship is Magic, Frozen, Adventure Time, The Boondocks, Regular Show, Ben 10, and so many other shows that are smartly written, made for people of all ages to appreciate, and enjoy.
Yes anime fans, I said it, western animation is better than anime these days. Mostly becasue, they are created by actual human beings, who have normal lives. I implore any anime fan to at least watch a western anime, before labeling it as "childish".
It is called "fan-service" for a reason. What seem to be the "minority" or "shallow audience group" maybe larger than you think, and they always got the dough to feed the industry. But is the anime-making business any different than other entertainment business like movies, music and video-games ? Me think not. I don't know if i'm right or not, but from what i see, it's always about the rating and popularity when it come to the entertainment industries. Why does Call of Duty franchise always popular ? Why do shows like To-Love Ru that show boob and ass mix with some action always popular ? Because the customer like what they see. Your ma and pa always tell you "not to judge a book by it's cover" right ? Guess what, people seem to like the cover more than the content. "Deep" and "profound" works of literature and art, mixed into a form of comic book doesn't have enough popularity as your average, mass-produced, cliche filled shounen manga that published weekly in a magazine. Maybe because those average manga always listen to your "shallow audience" need ? Maybe because those manga called shounen always aim to teenager group from 12 to 17 (just guessing) that in middle of developing puberty and have a massive want of seeing boob and ass ?
But enough rambling, to each his own. You read manga and watch anime because you want to, to hell with other people opinion. If you think it's good enough for you, then it's good enough.
It is called "fan-service" for a reason. What seem to be the "minority" or "shallow audience group" maybe larger than you think, and they always got the dough to feed the industry. But is the anime-making business any different than other entertainment business like movies, music and video-games ? Me think not. I don't know if i'm right or not, but from what i see, it's always about the rating and popularity when it come to the entertainment industries. Why does Call of Duty franchise always popular ? Why do shows like To-Love Ru that show boob and ass mix with some action always popular ? Because the customer like what they see. Your ma and pa always tell you "not to judge a book by it's cover" right ? Guess what, people seem to like the cover more than the content. "Deep" and "profound" works of literature and art, mixed into a form of comic book doesn't have enough popularity as your average, mass-produced, cliche filled shounen manga that published weekly in a magazine. Maybe because those average manga always listen to your "shallow audience" need ? Maybe because those manga called shounen always aim to teenager group from 12 to 17 (just guessing) that in middle of developing puberty and have a massive want of seeing boob and ass ?
But enough rambling, to each his own. You read manga and watch anime because you want to, to hell with other people opinion. If you think it's good enough for you, then it's good enough.
The thing is, first impressions are everything. If you fail to grab me, in the 5 minutes, that you are in my sight, I tend to judge you, based on face value alone. To Love-Ru failed to impress me, becasue it's nothing more than tits, and ass. Also, I think you give teenaged boys a lot less credit, than you think. Teenagers also don't want to be treated like idiots, and that's exactly why you see more smartly written shows in the west. At this point, i'm breaking up with most japanese media, becasue of the social disconnect, and the lack of exposure, and interest of Japanese content creators have in the outside world. What Gaijin Goombah said is absolutely true, Japan has no interest in anything outside it's borders. That's why you are seeing a lot of scarce materials of works inside Japan, and the fact that you're basically pulling teeth, to get anything inside that country. I'll just stick to western media for a while, because I can relate to it better, and I know that it's made for me. Plus, I have the luxury of getting first hand goods, from western companies.
This quote is why the anime industry is in the gutter right now, becasue the main demographic dosen't even know what quality animation anymore. There's only so many times you can see a pair of breasts, before you start to get sick of them. The term fanservice, has lost it's meaning. Hell, I can't even show my family any Japanese anime anymore, becasue most of it is okatu fap material. This is why western animation is kicking anime's ass, as of recently. You have the Legend of Korra, Shezow, Garvity Falls, Motor City, Samurai Jack, Friendship is Magic, Frozen, Adventure Time, The Boondocks, Regular Show, Ben 10, and so many other shows that are smartly written, made for people of all ages to appreciate, and enjoy.
Yes anime fans, I said it, western animation is better than anime these days. Mostly becasue, they are created by actual human beings, who have normal lives. I implore any anime fan to at least watch a western anime, before labeling it as "childish".
Do you hear yourself type? You are just as bad as the weaboos of yesteryears who thought Japanimation was inherently superior to Western animation. Way to pigeonhole an entire animation medium from another country into something undesirable.
I could say the same that Western "adult" animation is nothing but raunchy sardonic comedies of the likes of South Park, Clerks, Ugly Americans, Family Guy and The Simpsons. Try showing those to your ma and pa. See, just stooped to your level.
You sir don't know how to argue like a cultured person and is simply going on to insist that your immature taste is justified because some guy on the internet annoys you.
"Love Triangle is not harem" oh wow I don't think anyone would ever want to come up with such a hopeless argument. Love triangles and harems both satisfy the same niche, the logic of self-gratifying polygamy. You may have 2 hot guys or 5 hot girls surrounding you, in the end both are just your dimwitted self-centered fantasies that you are so good that you are worth having more than one romantic partner, which is to say the worse end of the kimo-otaku demographic definitely is not.
Some love triangles are okay if the love interests have some depths that make them a proper living character, but both Twilight and a vast amount of harem doesn't. Both are just fap fantasies for girls and guys respectively, written by idiotic writers who are getting way more money and recognition than they deserved.
I am not a Westerner, I am a Japanese living in another Asian country studying to be a doctor, I like anime much more than Western animations and I am also highly critical of most movies Hollywood produced, especially ones that contains objectified women. So there I am not trying to assert any "Western holier than thou" logic here, simply because I basically cannot.
Stan-Miller said:
stuffs
I know, that's my problem here. Anime industry is just like any other industries, the creators don't give a crap what they're producing as long as its giving them back goldmines. In a world where bull feces sells better than McDonalds, farming bull especially for their excrement would be a global business.
That's why I'm saying the audiences are at fault. I know I am unable to change it alone even if I spend the entirety my family's income on anime products to support the creators I like, or even if I am able to come up with the next anime to replace Shingeki no Kyojin on the throne, it does not change the fact that a large number(minority or not) of shallow anime audiences are the one steering the anime economy into their favor.
As I've said, I am very well aware that an average fan of Nyaruko is much more willing to spend money on the merchandise to support the industry than an average fan of something like One Piece.
Is it futile rambling? Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that I hate how this particular industry which I do still love very fondly is now being controlled by simpletons who can't think beyond self-gratifying simpletons.
As for the definition of "shonen", while it had always been iffy about how much gore shonen allows, given how Hokuto no Ken has always been shonen ever since in the 80s and the tradition definitely still continues with something like Mirai Nikki.
As such to me the word "shonen" and "seinen" doesn't mean anything anymore, shonen such as Mirai Nikki, Death Note and Psycho-Pass can have more gore, sexual contents, and plot complexity than many seinen such as SAO.
The point here isn't what should or should not qualify as "shonen" or "seinen", since these words' meanings are empty. The point is that something as pornographic as To Love-Ru should nevertheless not be on a magazine a toddler can buy by himself at any convenience store without anyone batting an eye.
You sir don't know how to argue like a cultured person and is simply going on to insist that your immature taste is justified because some guy on the internet annoys you.
"Love Triangle is not harem" oh wow I don't think anyone would ever want to come up with such a hopeless argument. Love triangles and harems both satisfy the same niche, the logic of self-gratifying polygamy. You may have 2 hot guys or 5 hot girls surrounding you, in the end both are just your dimwitted self-centered fantasies that you are so good that you are worth having more than one romantic partner, which is to say the worse end of the kimo-otaku demographic definitely is not.
Some love triangles are okay if the love interests have some depths that make them a proper living character, but both Twilight and a vast amount of harem doesn't. Both are just fap fantasies for girls and guys respectively, written by idiotic writers who are getting way more money and recognition than they deserved.
I am not a Westerner, I am a Japanese living in another Asian country studying to be a doctor, I like anime much more than Western animations and I am also highly critical of most movies Hollywood produced, especially ones that contains objectified women. So there I am not trying to assert any "Western holier than thou" logic here, simply because I basically cannot.
I know, that's my problem here. Anime industry is just like any other industries, the creators don't give a crap what they're producing as long as its giving them back goldmines. In a world where bull feces sells better than McDonalds, farming bull especially for their excrement would be a global business.
That's why I'm saying the audiences are at fault. I know I am unable to change it alone even if I spend the entirety my family's income on anime products to support the creators I like, or even if I am able to come up with the next anime to replace Shingeki no Kyojin on the throne, it does not change the fact that a large number(minority or not) of shallow anime audiences are the one steering the anime economy into their favor.
As I've said, I am very well aware that an average fan of Nyaruko is much more willing to spend money on the merchandise to support the industry than an average fan of something like One Piece.
Is it futile rambling? Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that I hate how this particular industry which I do still love very fondly is now being controlled by simpletons who can't think beyond self-gratifying simpletons.
As for the definition of "shonen", while it had always been iffy about how much gore shonen allows, given how Hokuto no Ken has always been shonen ever since in the 80s and the tradition definitely still continues with something like Mirai Nikki.
As such to me the word "shonen" and "seinen" doesn't mean anything anymore, shonen such as Mirai Nikki, Death Note and Psycho-Pass can have more gore, sexual contents, and plot complexity than many seinen such as SAO.
The point here isn't what should or should not qualify as "shonen" or "seinen", since these words' meanings are empty. The point is that something as pornographic as To Love-Ru should nevertheless not be on a magazine a toddler can buy by himself at any convenience store without anyone batting an eye.
For those telling me i'm a westaboo, i just want to say one thing. I'm not a jingoisitc guy. Yes, I live in the United States, and i'm from Illinois. There are a lot of different people here. Mostly stupid, and mostly smart. I have no problem saying that i'm happy to live here. Yes, there are a lot of faults with our media, but there's a certian fertile ground over here, for creativity, that can't be found anywhere else. There are good japanese cartoons, and there are good western cartoons. The problem I have, is that Japanese content creators have no interest in the outside world, and that's a problem for those who want to exprerince thier works. This also ties into the whole "fanservice" thing, where all you see are tits, and ass. I assure you that these series were only made for males, and no on but. The reason why I can proudly say that I somewhat like western media more, is the fact that I can relate to the stories better. I can aslo relate to the characters a lot more, becasue it was made by western writters. Furthermore, there are stories in western media that transcends all age groups, and that's the best thing about it. Good stories transcends age, gender, race, and religion. Which is why I cannot belive that most anime wants to pander to a certian group.
What i think is that your average weekly magazine's artist is not just draw these stuff on their own will but bound by contract, rating, advice from editor and etc. Like "Dude, with stuff like this your work rating won't get any higher, and will probably get cancel. You got to put in more tits, and ass, and make that useless male protagonist trip and fall on them girl more often. Just listen to me, i'm your editor, i know what the reader want." Well, thank god for doujin artist then. Least they don't get bound by common sense, the money-driving common sense, and can freely do anything they like. Cause hey, it their funeral.
azurelorochi said:
As such to me the word "shonen" and "seinen" doesn't mean anything anymore
Bro, if you go by their definition of "ecchi" and "adult"(or "hentai"); which the only difference is whether they "j-jam it in" or just showing their rack. The only difference between "shonen" and "seinen" is the age of the protagonist. The rest of the content can go wherever the editor tell 'em to.
Bro, if you go by their definition of "ecchi" and "adult"(or "hentai"); which the only difference is whether they "j-jam it in" or just showing their rack. The only difference between "shonen" and "seinen" is the age of the protagonist. The rest of the content can go wherever the editor tell 'em to.
Age of the protagonist isn't really cutting it though, big shonen mangas like Hokuto no Ken, Jojo and DBZ all have a handful of protagonists who are well over 20 years old ever since the conception of the shonen genre, while many LNs while categorized under "seinen" ever since their LN time or upon being adapted into anime often have protagonists during the highschool years, such as SAO where every character who had more than 5 minutes screen time are all under 18.
"Ecchi" and "adult" too, differs more than whether or not there is a sex scene(either fully shown, partially shown without any privates revealed, or simply mentioned). Mirai Nikki has a sex scene between 14 years old in a shonen manga and I am perfectly okay with it because it is not meant to be for titillation rather more for plot purposes without disrupting the flow of the story itself.
The difference here being how the sex scene is executed, Mirai Nikki's usage of sex scene is akin to a cherry version of how sex scenes are used in Game of Thrones, and I am perfectly okay with that.
I am NOT against the usage of fanservices, Code Geass, Kill la Kill and No Game No Life did a decent job with their fanservices IMO because the fanservice is more of a simple backseat extra while allowing the plot to drive itself forward. I am not aroused by any fanservices in these animes but it doesn't come into my way of wanting to enjoy a plot written by someone who can think of something else apart from lolis and boobs.
azurelorochi said: You sir don't know how to argue like a cultured person and is simply going on to insist that your immature taste is justified because some guy on the internet annoys you.
"Love Triangle is not harem" oh wow I don't think anyone would ever want to come up with such a hopeless argument. Love triangles and harems both satisfy the same niche, the logic of self-gratifying polygamy. You may have 2 hot guys or 5 hot girls surrounding you, in the end both are just your dimwitted self-centered fantasies that you are so good that you are worth having more than one romantic partner, which is to say the worse end of the kimo-otaku demographic definitely is not.
Some love triangles are okay if the love interests have some depths that make them a proper living character, but both Twilight and a vast amount of harem doesn't. Both are just fap fantasies for girls and guys respectively, written by idiotic writers who are getting way more money and recognition than they deserved.
I am not a Westerner, I am a Japanese living in another Asian country studying to be a doctor, I like anime much more than Western animations and I am also highly critical of most movies Hollywood produced, especially ones that contains objectified women. So there I am not trying to assert any "Western holier than thou" logic here, simply because I basically cannot.
Whoa there, champ. Don't assume I'm up at arms just because I disagree with you. In fact, your previous posts make yourself sound like you're up on some ivory tower looking down at the groveling plebs with their "poor taste" in disgust like how you just judged on my preference. Classy.
I love how you make your simplifications by comparing Twilight and harems only on the basis of numbers, meaning multitudes of beautiful people attracted to one specific person. Strictly comparing all harems to twilight is a disservice in itself when the genre itself has a lot more variety than just the Sparkling Vampire love triangle for girls. I would personally not put something like Vandread on the same page as Twilight. Don't get drunk on that hatearade and resort to erroneous generalizations and biases.
No one is talking about who's race is who in this discussion (at least to my knowledge.) What I'm trying to go with that is the Western "PC" mentality heavily derived from the socially and mentally constricting Puritan principles. You know, the same lot who think the naked body is one huge malevolent sin and must be covered at all costs. There's no denying that this same mindset has permeated beyond the Anglosphere and now everyone is in on this titillation=bad trend we see now in the fandom.
@D the Man Which begs the question why you're still into the hobby when you've become clearly alienated by it. You're only hurting yourself if you're still in it under the pretense of the "diamond in the rough" thinking and having to wade stuff after stuff of things you don't really care for.
Comparing harems and Twilight as a simplification? Really? I'm talking exactly about what these 2 genres(if you can call Twilight a genre because it sure have spawned enough ripoffs) satisfy the same need in its audiences.
If you want a really simplified solution that is true, then there's this: Twilight and harem objectifies the opposite sex of its audience. It treats its triangle guys and harem girls as objects that you, the mighty and all powerful Kirsten Stewart or the completely no good harem lead, can interchange freely like changing around your favorite toy when you got bored of the first one.
The fact that harem leads don't usually end up with any girl doesn't help because it still doesn't stop the audience from forming their self-centered polygamy in their heads. In an actual comparison of numbers, harem animes would actually be a worse offender than Twilight since it's a self-gratifying fantasy where a no-good protagonist can get 5+ girls to himself, which often includes the "smartest girl" archetypes, if not literal goddesses.
Is it generalization? Indeed, but is it true that the vast, vast majority of harems fall into this category? Well yes, so many harems are basically clones of each other with swapped faces for the characters. If you want another reason for me to hate harems without calling it a "bad taste" then there's also this reasoning that it is hurting the drive for originality, because apparently stashing cliches around is enough to make money for everyone.
In the most simplest argument I can make, "objectification = bad", and yet a lot of our modern medias, east and west, centers around objectification of people as the main form of attraction. I don't think I even have to be a moral Nazi to say that this is not okay.
Titillation is not bad as I said I am okay with fanservice when it is used in moderation, what we can see from modern anime is definitely not moderation, it's an overkill of nothing BUT titillation, and that makes it harder and harder for me everyday to convince anyone that anime is not a media that turns people into pedophilic perverts.
Now this comment section is just becoming a battle bout different in opinion. We're all civilize gentleman, right. If thing keep on like this, it'll never reach a conclusion. It can only end when people get bored and leave this place alone. Been there, done that. I suggest that when you see someone like their coffe black, but you like your with milk and lots of sugar, but that mutha'ucker keep talking like "only true coffe is black", leave.
Before you ask, i'm only here cuz i like debate. I like to read people opinion, open your mind bout different things, but not when someone starting to say stuff disregard of other people opinion. There are reasons people like the things they like, and vice versa.
I mean no aggression, and I always try to base my argument on reasons than emotions, that is why I argue on the meaning behind and the purposes of this anime, without attacking if lolicon, imouto-moe, and other fetishes I don't care for.
Are the reasons biased? Perhaps, but I think that anyone who can agree that Twilight is a bad piece of writing would be much more biased, if not outright hypocritical to think that harems are justified at least as a "better" form of entertainment than Twilight.
Same logic goes to yuri fanboys who hates yaoi and fujoshi who hates yuri, no matter how you look at it, they are complete hypocrites, yet it is undeniable that there is a huge amount of people like this in our anime community.
I am not saying that titillations in anime should be banned, as I've said before, as a straight male, I support its usage as long as it is in moderation. I'm not saying "black coffee is the only true coffee", I'm saying "it's okay to eat a hamburger but not for every damn meal".
I also enjoy debates, but when my argument flies right past the other side's head completely, the debate becomes much less fun to engage in.
The fact that harem leads don't usually end up with any girl doesn't help because it still doesn't stop the audience from forming their self-centered polygamy in their heads. In an actual comparison of numbers, harem animes would actually be a worse offender than Twilight since it's a self-gratifying fantasy where a no-good protagonist can get 5+ girls to himself, which often includes the "smartest girl" archetypes, if not literal goddesses.
Unless you could pull up hard statistics on how harem leads usually end, I'd have to question that "fact" of yours. There are plenty of harem anime that end with the main character choosing one girl out of the bunch. I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of them take this approach, as usually they tend to start off with a rather strong bond developing between the male lead and an initially introduced female lead, and you know by the end of the series that bond isn't going to be defeated by the other introduced female characters.
As for what the audience desires, I don't think you're psychic and I don't think you've surveyed them, so I doubt you really know what the majority of the audiences of these shows want. Also, if the audiences so desired the "self-centered polygamy," then why do so many fans of shows with lots of potential love interests focus heavily on trying to ship specific 1-1 relationship couplings? Lastly, what's it matter to you what the viewer does in their head? Do you expect us to regulate what people think and do in their heads?
As for your claim on it hurting the drive for originality, I don't buy that. If the market is saturated with clones, then that would actually encourage more originality because you're not going to make sales and be profitable unless you have some means of standing out from the crowd. You can't be a copy amongst other copies and expect it to do well, and making one into an anime is a big enough cost that I highly doubt businesses are going to just grab any old clone to make into an anime. Furthermore all industries, whether gaming, movies, books, etc to some degree rely on a formulas to make their products. A formula that sold well encourages its reuse, while formulas that failed to sell well die out, but industries know that you can't resell the same exact formula over and over again without it going stale, so there is always some change in the formula. It is "being smart" that we reuse and utilize from our past successes. If you call using what works "stifling," well fine, but blaming this innate nature of industry (if not the innate nature of life itself) on harem anime is just silly.
Look like this debate about the harem genre still going on, so i might as well join in. From what i seen, a genre is just a theme for the product itself, the important things that make the product good or bad are the mold, material, details... so you can't really just blame the genre. Harem is when your protagonist got tangled in love with more than 2 characters, whether male or female. Either the protagonist end up with the "first girl always win" or "anti-climax open-ended ending that doesn't really change anything in the series at all". Even shoujo manga have harem, which usually involve an naive and kinda loud girl falling in love with handsome assholes, and other colorful male personalities you can think of. Stuffs like these usually don't have room to develop characters pesonality, unless that author have a knack in writing and drawn out his hand to grab your heart, instead of just throw in as much drama as he can to make the damn thing just like some TV soap opera that make you frustrate and irritate at every seconds of the show, and at the end you wonder: "Why am i even watching this? What am i, some housewife who got nothing better to do ?" As i said before, though someone might disagree, is cause people like what they see that the industry keep making more for them to see. Stuff like boob, ass, moe-fetishes. The problem is that these mold they use are always seem kinda similar to each other, but with new details. Haters gonna keep hating, but what can they do? Doing some hate talk show on TV? Get some hate signatures to bann that thing they hate ? Go back in time and kill the source before it become popular ? You do good and mutha'ucker will hate you for being a show-off. You do bad and dumb teenager will idolize you for having the courage to do it. People should be like me, keep an open mind, understand that thing before you hate it. I don't watch Twilight but i don't outright hate it just because it bout love triangle between human, vampire and werewolf. That's hate-dumb.
While I won't argue that I may be wrong with the fact that many harem ended without any decided pair, it doesn't change the fact that many harem still drags out this tension for much longer than it should be, see the Index series for example.
Again, if protagonist centered polygamy is not what the money-paying audiences want, then why don't we see more of a 1-1 romantic animes? I know these romance-centered stories with clear protagonist and heroine without any 3rd+ wheel do exist in bulk within mangas, but why don't those mangas get adapted? Simple, because the manga industry is much more competitive and strict than LN, that's why in recent years we sees less and less mangas getting adapted into anime while more and more LNs get the adaptation.
Still, why don't we see more 1-1 romance animes being made if that's what the people want, adapted from either LN or just entirely original? Why are there still an oversaturation of harem animes in every season? The point still stands, 1-1 romance doesn't make as much money as harem, partially because it's simply harder to write for.
For a 1-1 romance story to work the audience must like both the protagonist AND the heroine, and going by your logic, in a harem the audience simply has to like 1 of the guys/girls being offered and doesn't even have to like the protagonist, allowing more space for lower risk margin when making a character. So even without the polygamy, your logic still dictates that harem writers are allowed to be less skilled. Because remember, Twilight also had Team Edward and Team Jacob.
For example in SAO, while Kirito and Asuna are the quote on quote "main" pair, what happened after the 1st arc ended? Asuna is shoved aside so Kirito can have his romantic arc with another girl, while having several extra girls who are willing to press their boobs into his face without any conditions. Does that sounds like a good writing for female characters?
And why would what other people think be my problem? Well why would people consider the 30% of obese population in America to be a problem? If I'm going to compare animes to food, would it be a good thing if the stereotypical consumer of your country be morbidly obese because they eat nothing but junk food? Again, I'm not saying everyone should go vegan, everyone can eat junk food every once in a while, even once a week would've been fine, just not everyday. An anime can have fanservice scenes even if its just pointless bath scenes, but I would say there should not be more than 1 of these scene per 4 eps AT MAXIMUM, getting boobs and butts littered throughout the screen for every ep is just stupid.
For the issue of unoriginality, yes indeed many cliches floating around would allow for truly original anime to rise above. But the problem is many writers and perhaps even anime studios are not aiming for the top, you can see in many LN stories(harem or not) that the authors are not even trying to be original, and the anime studio too, isn't trying to promote that anime. An example such as Mahou Sensou may be an extreme case of this, both the writer, publisher, and anime studio being seemingly content with making what they might very well know to be the epitome of mediocre anime which will only give them mediocre money.
It's a formula that works as long as they get a satisfiable amount of money. Not everyone is trying to become the next Shingeki no Kyojin, not everyone is trying to become Urobuchi, and that's why many animes can get away with having nothing original to offer because what the audiences want are just some fresh ecchi and moe, not the plot. It's slowly turning the anime industry into porn industry, where everyone gets into it for the sake of pure titillation alone.
Here are some examples of the supposed "big" harem titles that are unoriginal yet successful: - To Love-Ru is the first mainstream harem manga, but I never knew why it is popular apart from the fact that it's a major ecchi series on Shonen Jump. As D The Man said, it has now had degraded into borderline porn without anything else to offer. - Nyaruko has the premise of its (bastardizing) Lovecraftian theme but then uses annoying references to other animes far more than actual references to Lovecraft. The characters are very shallow with several harem crews using the ultra-convenience excuse of "love at first sight" for the reason they are attracted to the protagonist. - Oreimo mostly features the ultra-bitchy imouto but apart from Kirino's extreme character which is actually unique in a negative way, everyone else is bland and uninspired. - Haganai features 2 main heroines as the lead of the harem, but apart from that explores very little in its supposed theme of friendship and social awkwardness. - Oreshura has a twist in the protagonist being uninterested in the concept of love, but then dropped that idea 3 episodes in and from there on has nothing else original to offer. Sekirei features itself as one of the first popular battle harem, but apart from the fights, the characters has little uniqueness to offer.
I could go on but I will say this, when done properly, some animes that are quote on quote "harem" such as Clannad can actually be good. "Harem" genre itself isn't evil, what matters is the author and I would think it sufficed to say that many simply doesn't have enough skill to be worth the pay they are getting.
While I won't argue that I may be wrong with the fact that many harem ended without any decided pair, it doesn't change the fact that many harem still drags out this tension for much longer than it should be, see the Index series for example.
Again, if protagonist centered polygamy is not what the money-paying audiences want, then why don't we see more of a 1-1 romantic animes? I know these romance-centered stories with clear protagonist and heroine without any 3rd+ wheel do exist in bulk within mangas, but why don't those mangas get adapted? Simple, because the manga industry is much more competitive and strict than LN, that's why in recent years we sees less and less mangas getting adapted into anime while more and more LNs get the adaptation.
Still, why don't we see more 1-1 romance animes being made if that's what the people want, adapted from either LN or just entirely original? Why are there still an oversaturation of harem animes in every season? The point still stands, 1-1 romance doesn't make as much money as harem, partially because it's simply harder to write for.
For a 1-1 romance story to work the audience must like both the protagonist AND the heroine, and going by your logic, in a harem the audience simply has to like 1 of the guys/girls being offered and doesn't even have to like the protagonist, allowing more space for lower risk margin when making a character. So even without the polygamy, your logic still dictates that harem writers are allowed to be less skilled. Because remember, Twilight also had Team Edward and Team Jacob.
For example in SAO, while Kirito and Asuna are the quote on quote "main" pair, what happened after the 1st arc ended? Asuna is shoved aside so Kirito can have his romantic arc with another girl, while having several extra girls who are willing to press their boobs into his face without any conditions. Does that sounds like a good writing for female characters?
And why would what other people think be my problem? Well why would people consider the 30% of obese population in America to be a problem? If I'm going to compare animes to food, would it be a good thing if the stereotypical consumer of your country be morbidly obese because they eat nothing but junk food? Again, I'm not saying everyone should go vegan, everyone can eat junk food every once in a while, even once a week would've been fine, just not everyday. An anime can have fanservice scenes even if its just pointless bath scenes, but I would say there should not be more than 1 of these scene per 4 eps AT MAXIMUM, getting boobs and butts littered throughout the screen for every ep is just stupid.
For the issue of unoriginality, yes indeed many cliches floating around would allow for truly original anime to rise above. But the problem is many writers and perhaps even anime studios are not aiming for the top, you can see in many LN stories(harem or not) that the authors are not even trying to be original, and the anime studio too, isn't trying to promote that anime. An example such as Mahou Sensou may be an extreme case of this, both the writer, publisher, and anime studio being seemingly content with making what they might very well know to be the epitome of mediocre anime which will only give them mediocre money.
It's a formula that works as long as they get a satisfiable amount of money. Not everyone is trying to become the next Shingeki no Kyojin, not everyone is trying to become Urobuchi, and that's why many animes can get away with having nothing original to offer because what the audiences want are just some fresh ecchi and moe, not the plot. It's slowly turning the anime industry into porn industry, where everyone gets into it for the sake of pure titillation alone.
Here are some examples of the supposed "big" harem titles that are unoriginal yet successful: - To Love-Ru is the first mainstream harem manga, but I never knew why it is popular apart from the fact that it's a major ecchi series on Shonen Jump. As D The Man said, it has now had degraded into borderline porn without anything else to offer. - Nyaruko has the premise of its (bastardizing) Lovecraftian theme but then uses annoying references to other animes far more than actual references to Lovecraft. The characters are very shallow with several harem crews using the ultra-convenience excuse of "love at first sight" for the reason they are attracted to the protagonist. - Oreimo mostly features the ultra-bitchy imouto but apart from Kirino's extreme character which is actually unique in a negative way, everyone else is bland and uninspired. - Haganai features 2 main heroines as the lead of the harem, but apart from that explores very little in its supposed theme of friendship and social awkwardness. - Oreshura has a twist in the protagonist being uninterested in the concept of love, but then dropped that idea 3 episodes in and from there on has nothing else original to offer. Sekirei features itself as one of the first popular battle harem, but apart from the fights, the characters has little uniqueness to offer.
I could go on but I will say this, when done properly, some animes that are quote on quote "harem" such as Clannad can actually be good. "Harem" genre itself isn't evil, what matters is the author and I would think it sufficed to say that many simply doesn't have enough skill to be worth the pay they are getting.
I will say though, that even though the whole fanservice thing has gone way out of control, I will admit, that female characters have way more agency in anime, then ever before. You have Kill la Kill, that have very strong female leads, who are not there for sex appeal. You have One Piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail, and Bleach, which are supposed to be boys, actually appeal to females, becasue they have female characters, that they can project themselves onto, like Rukia Kuchki, Erza Scarlet, Hinata Hyugga, Nami, and Lucy Heartfilia. It's not a bad thing, but the sour tases in my mouth arises, when male character designers basically exploit these characters for cheap sex appeal, every 5 minutes. Hell, even most women can gravitate towards Andorid 18, form DBZ, because not only can she kick any man's ass, she even defeated a Super Saiyan with ease, and not feel any bit of hesitation. She aslo keeps most of the male characters like Master Roshi, Mr. Satan, Krillin, and even Goku in check. Yeah, there are a lot more female leads, with important roles, in anime that ever before, but there's the issue with pointless sexualization of these characters.
Err, having a monogamous anime doesn't necessarily equate to quality.I've seen and read my fair share of those in the shoujo and josei throwaway bin. If not offensive, they're boring to go through. Again, my opinion.
Also, what you're trying to advocate for bigger salary for "better and unique" product is just not feasible for such a niche industry such as anime and manga. The authors and mangaka are already earning a pittance from their current output and most are in it because, you're not gonna believe it, but they like what they make. Who in their right mind would stick doing what kills them inside for sweatshop wage? Also think about this, if everyone goes on to make multiple clones of SnK but in different flavors, wouldn't that also fall into your most dreaded "cliche" route? It happened before with toyetic mechas in the 60's and 70's, medieval fantasy's in the 90's and SOL's in the early 00's. Or would that be okay because violence and gore are much more socially acceptable than harmless naughty bits? I'm sorry but your lofty goals of having everyone strive to become Urobutchers, Niheis, and Yatates or what have you is just a big farce that amounts to trading one thing over the other.
D_The_Man said: I will say though, that even though the whole fanservice thing has gone way out of control, I will admit, that female characters have way more agency in anime, then ever before. You have Kill la Kill, that have very strong female leads, who are not there for sex appeal. You have One Piece, Naruto, Fairy Tail, and Bleach, which are supposed to be boys, actually appeal to females, becasue they have female characters, that they can project themselves onto, like Rukia Kuchki, Erza Scarlet, Hinata Hyugga, Nami, and Lucy Heartfilia. It's not a bad thing, but the sour tases in my mouth arises, when male character designers basically exploit these characters for cheap sex appeal, every 5 minutes. Hell, even most women can gravitate towards Andorid 18, form DBZ, because not only can she kick any man's ass, she even defeated a Super Saiyan with ease, and not feel any bit of hesitation. She aslo keeps most of the male characters like Master Roshi, Mr. Satan, Krillin, and even Goku in check. Yeah, there are a lot more female leads, with important roles, in anime that ever before, but there's the issue with pointless sexualization of these characters.
So you're fine with them being sexualized as long as they're strong, tough or some other form of feminist pandering quality? Talk about double standards.
Err, having a monogamous anime doesn't necessarily equate to quality.I've seen and read my fair share of those in the shoujo and josei throwaway bin. If not offensive, they're boring to go through. Again, my opinion.
Also, what you're trying to advocate for bigger salary for "better and unique" product is just not feasible for such a niche industry such as anime and manga. The authors and mangaka are already earning a pittance from their current output and most are in it because, you're not gonna believe it, but they like what they make. Who in their right mind would stick doing what kills them inside for sweatshop wage? Also think about this, if everyone goes on to make multiple clones of SnK but in different flavors, wouldn't that also fall into your most dreaded "cliche" route? It happened before with toyetic mechas in the 60's and 70's, medieval fantasy's in the 90's and SOL's in the early 00's. Or would that be okay because violence and gore are much more socially acceptable than harmless naughty bits? I'm sorry but your lofty goals of having everyone strive to become Urobutchers, Niheis, and Yatates or what have you is just a big farce that amounts to trading one thing over the other.
So what you're saying id that standards, quality, and high expectations, are too "lofty" & "impossible". Man do I feel sorry for this generation. Appaerntly "good enough", is the new definition of quality now. No need to do your best, or try to stand out, or even make something original, just do what everyone else is doing, and hope to make money. That's where we're at, when it comes to effort? When you make a work, for a professional industry, one has to hold themselves to a high standard, if they want to be taken seriously in the eyes, of the consumers, and the people in the industry. Just making a pait-by-numbers product wouldn't have even cut it back then. You had to prove yourself, and stand out, if you had a future in the entertainment insudtry, now we just make things for the status quo, and play it safe now. Man, do i hate this new generation of anime, and anime fans.
It's less about being a "louder" voice and more money talks. Kids who are into Naruto and the like basically always need to beg their parents for 1 new toy. An otaku will spend upwards to 1000$ per month on his favorite figurines, body pillows and Blu-rays.
If it's 10 kids vs 10 adult otakus, who do you think the companies will try to sell to? Money always talks,and otaku's seem to pull money out of thin air to pay for their hobbies.
I don't understand why anyone would use the money factor as a pro-argument. That's so self insulting. While it is mostly the truth, it's a fucking depressing truth and defending this disguisting work of capitalism is going in the absolute wrong direction. Shouldn't this be the point where anime fans stand up and say they don't want the thing they love to be controlled by money-hungry, old businessmen? Instead we're seeing a front of people bending down to these businessmen, eating up everything thrown into their sweaty palms and barking at every voice of reason with the pathetic argument "MONEY IS ALWAYS BOSS".
If you're gonna sink that low, you might aswell call yourself a bitch, the little obedient bitch of the moneymakers.