Got sunk first when the war actually started: Check
Yeah, I'd say she's Zhan Jian Shao Nyu's America's version of Akagi.
Except that the "bauxite queen" title has to do with quirks and bugs of KC's gameplay, rather than her actual historical role.
Plus, to be fair, Lady Lex acquitted herself a bit better in Coral Sea, which was a net loss for the Americans, than the unmitigated disaster at Midway. Lex at least assisted in the sinking of one carrier, damaging of another, and depleted the aircraft of a third.
T34/38 said:
Or Shoukaku, given that she had a sister
Don't be unfair to Shoukaku, now. The Shoukaku class were absolutely the best carriers the IJN had, and for as much as people make fun of her taking damage all the time, what makes her different from the likes of Kaga is that she DIDN'T sink from just a single friggin' bomb, and managed to get repaired and put back on the front time and time again. If more IJN carriers had mastered that whole "not exploding if something looks at them funny" trick, the IJN would have probably lasted at least another year.
NWSiaCB said: Don't be unfair to Shoukaku, now. The Shoukaku class were absolutely the best carriers the IJN had, and for as much as people make fun of her taking damage all the time, what makes her different from the likes of Kaga is that she DIDN'T sink from just a single friggin' bomb, and managed to get repaired and put back on the front time and time again. If more IJN carriers had mastered that whole "not exploding if something looks at them funny" trick, the IJN would have probably lasted at least another year.
I didn't say that to bully her. Then again she was wrecked really hard but didn't sunk unlike Lady Lex.
There are similarities for a good reason, except Shoukaku survive much longer but the IJN though that their doctrine was that good until things are going bad for them especially after Midway where their best pilots and trainers nearly wipeout as they never recover after that.
NWSiaCB said: Don't be unfair to Shoukaku, now. The Shoukaku class were absolutely the best carriers the IJN had, and for as much as people make fun of her taking damage all the time, what makes her different from the likes of Kaga is that she DIDN'T sink from just a single friggin' bomb, and managed to get repaired and put back on the front time and time again. If more IJN carriers had mastered that whole "not exploding if something looks at them funny" trick, the IJN would have probably lasted at least another year.
I didn't say that to bully her. Then again she was wrecked really hard but didn't sunk unlike Lady Lex.
There are similarities for a good reason, except Shoukaku survive much longer but the IJN though that their doctrine was that good until things are going bad for them especially after Midway where their best pilots and trainers nearly wipeout as they never recover after that.
Myth. Overall pilot losses actually weren't that bad as a result of the sinkings at Midway. Most of the deaths aboard ship were engineering and DC personnel trapped below or trying to fight the fires. The pilot largely got off the ships and because the Japanese had plenty of boats around most were subsequently recovered. Japanese naval aviation quality did not begin to perceptibly dip until the end of 1942 after the attrition over the Solomon really took hold and the decline only became obviously evident to everyone by around the middle of 1943.
This whole focus on pilots losses at Midway is an odd sort of myth that sprang up later seemingly because historian wanted to try and come up with some 'new insight' on the battle as much as anything else. If you read Shattered Sword though (basically the definitive account of the battle) it's pretty clear that, no, what mattered at Midway was that the Japanese lost two thirds of their fucking fleet carriers in a day. This really ought to be the blindly obvious common sense impact of the battle, but you know what they say about common sense.
Myth. Overall pilot losses actually weren't that bad as a result of the sinkings at Midway. Most of the deaths aboard ship were engineering and DC personnel trapped below or trying to fight the fires. The pilot largely got off the ships and because the Japanese had plenty of boats around most were subsequently recovered. Japanese naval aviation quality did not begin to perceptibly dip until the end of 1942 after the attrition over the Solomon really took hold and the decline only became obviously evident to everyone by around the middle of 1943.
This whole focus on pilots losses at Midway is an odd sort of myth that sprang up later seemingly because historian wanted to try and come up with some 'new insight' on the battle as much as anything else. If you read Shattered Sword though (basically the definitive account of the battle) it's pretty clear that, no, what mattered at Midway was that the Japanese lost two thirds of their fucking fleet carriers in a day. This really ought to be the blindly obvious common sense impact of the battle, but you know what they say about common sense.
They still didn't bring in the pilots to do a lot of training for the new carriers that were under construction. 1944, the last year the Japanese carrier forces had any real numbers, their pilots did horribly against the Americans in the air. After that it was seemingly Kamikaze units in 1945.
They still didn't bring in the pilots to do a lot of training for the new carriers that were under construction. 1944, the last year the Japanese carrier forces had any real numbers, their pilots did horribly against the Americans in the air. After that it was seemingly Kamikaze units in 1945.
That probably had more to do with the lack of fuel than anything. Back then, there were no real simulators (other than having a cockpit mockup with no real response in the controls set up), and pilots had little actual in-the-air practice runs, much less time spent practicing difficult carrier landings.
I can't remember off the top of my head, but the average amount of time actually spent practicing in the air was something like 20-50 times greater for the USN pilots as the IJN pilots past the start of the war. (And the US actually took skilled pilots off the front lines to train the next batch, while Japan left them all on the fronts because, hey, this is going to be a short war or they'll die trying, amiright?)
ASW is something carriers don't train for. That is up to the destroyers, and some times light cruisers.
Thing is not even the Japanese destroyers trained up to par on ASW.
Cause it wasn't offensive or some other junk like that.
Bar none the Japanese had the worst ASW doctrine ever, of all time.
Both the French and the Italians which are often considered a joke when it comes to naval matters outstripped the IJN so far it wasn't even funny.
If the USN subs had working torpedoes they literally could have cut six months to a year off the war. As is Japan lost a year by some estimates because of shitty ASW doctrine and training.
Except that the "bauxite queen" title has to do with quirks and bugs of KC's gameplay, rather than her actual historical role.
Plus, to be fair, Lady Lex acquitted herself a bit better in Coral Sea, which was a net loss for the Americans, than the unmitigated disaster at Midway. Lex at least assisted in the sinking of one carrier, damaging of another, and depleted the aircraft of a third.
Don't be unfair to Shoukaku, now. The Shoukaku class were absolutely the best carriers the IJN had, and for as much as people make fun of her taking damage all the time, what makes her different from the likes of Kaga is that she DIDN'T sink from just a single friggin' bomb, and managed to get repaired and put back on the front time and time again. If more IJN carriers had mastered that whole "not exploding if something looks at them funny" trick, the IJN would have probably lasted at least another year.
About USS Lexington (CV-2), it actually survived those attacks by Japanese planes only to get explosions later after that, forcing it to be scuttled.
Regarding the IJN Kaga, this is what happens when an admiral makes a fateful decision (in part due to the US navy being prepared for the battle) to change armanent and having to save time by deck carrier personnel doing so, leaving the flight deck cluttered with munitions.
Tk3997 said:
Myth. Overall pilot losses actually weren't that bad as a result of the sinkings at Midway. Most of the deaths aboard ship were engineering and DC personnel trapped below or trying to fight the fires. The pilot largely got off the ships and because the Japanese had plenty of boats around most were subsequently recovered. Japanese naval aviation quality did not begin to perceptibly dip until the end of 1942 after the attrition over the Solomon really took hold and the decline only became obviously evident to everyone by around the middle of 1943.
This whole focus on pilots losses at Midway is an odd sort of myth that sprang up later seemingly because historian wanted to try and come up with some 'new insight' on the battle as much as anything else. If you read Shattered Sword though (basically the definitive account of the battle) it's pretty clear that, no, what mattered at Midway was that the Japanese lost two thirds of their fucking fleet carriers in a day. This really ought to be the blindly obvious common sense impact of the battle, but you know what they say about common sense.
In a sense, the loss of engineering and deck carrier personnel is more important than the loss of pilots (not to mention the loss of a carrier admiral) because they are even harder to replace than pilots (this is due to the lower degree of mechanisation in Japan than the US during the 1930s and 1940s).
In a sense, the loss of engineering and deck carrier personnel is more important than the loss of pilots (not to mention the loss of a carrier admiral) because they are even harder to replace than pilots (this is due to the lower degree of mechanisation in Japan than the US during the 1930s and 1940s).
No it's not, not even close.
The engineering and deck personnel weren't a major issue, the plants on a carrier were little different then anything cruiser sized and up. The deck crew could also be reasonably drilled easily enough, allot of useful training didn't really demand actually flying the planes and there were often more planes then pilots to be had to practice with. Furthermore and perhaps most importantly both these personnel would rarely ever be lost in large numbers unless a ship actually sank, and if the ship sank... well you don't need an engineering and deck crew for it anymore do you? So in a sense the pool of this type of personnel was self correcting, more and more of them died... but there were fewer and fewer ships that needed them.
Pilots are a different matter they can and often were heavily bled even if the ship itself was largely unharmed. They thus demanded constant replacement or the ship itself was rendered useless and they couldn't be trained effectively sitting in port or pushing around empty aircraft on the flight and hanger deck. This is compounded by the fact it takes a hell of allot more schooling and higher academic standards to make a decent pilot then it does a boiler technician or deckhand. They were easily the most time intensive and hardest to replace while also being simultaneously the most exposed to attrition.
Which is exactly why they ran out of good ones long before any other personnel shortage of materiel importance emerged.