Danbooru
Login Posts Comments Notes Artists Tags Pools Wiki Forum More » Listing Upload Hot Changes Help

Search

Blacklisted (help)

  • guro
  • scat
  • furry -rating:g
Disable all Re-enable all

Artist

  • ? yumiya 555

Copyright

  • ? touhou 940k

Characters

  • ? fujiwara no mokou 27k
  • ? kamishirasawa keine 16k

General

  • ? 2girls 1.1M
  • ? bed 115k
  • ? blank speech bubble 2.4k
  • ? bow 1.3M
  • ? comic 586k
  • ? death 6.5k
  • ? grey hair 780k
  • ? hair bow 586k
  • ? hair ribbon 658k
  • ? holding hands 113k
  • ? multiple girls 1.7M
  • ? notice lines 35k
  • ? old 14k
  • ? red eyes 1.4M
  • ? ribbon 1.2M
  • ? smoke 46k
  • ? speech bubble 323k
  • ? tears 251k
  • ? thought bubble 39k
  • ? tree 185k
  • ? tress ribbon 23k
  • ? yuri 247k

Meta

  • ? commentary request 3.6M
  • ? highres 6.0M
  • ? ↳ absurdres 2.1M
  • ? tall image 16k
  • ? translated 581k

Information

  • ID: 461376
  • Uploader: Tetrominon »
  • Date: about 16 years ago
  • Approver: FeKa »
  • Size: 408 KB .jpg (645x8623) »
  • Source: pixiv.net/artworks/4477237 »
  • Rating: Sensitive
  • Score: 39
  • Favorites: 189
  • Status: Active

Options

  • Resize to window
  • Find similar
  • Download

History

  • Tags
  • Pools
  • Notes
  • Moderation
  • Commentary
This post belongs to a parent (learn more) « hide
post #463071
fujiwara no mokou and kamishirasawa keine (touhou) drawn by yumiya

Artist's commentary

  • Original
  • 夏の終わり。

    「一発だけならおもいっきり殴っていいわよ。」
    輝夜がぽつりと言った。
    意味がわからなくて振り返ると「意外と泣いてないのね。」と言った。
    「あんたを不死にしたのは私じゃないと今でも思ってるけど、今だけは我慢したげるわ。さぁ殴りなさい。」
    「慰めてるつもりか?」
    「えぇ。」
    「…ありがとう」
    私が笑うと輝夜は不思議そうに首をかしげた。
    「何故泣いたり怒ったりしないの?」
    今までに何度も泣いた。
    私が泣き喚いたり、彼女がすすり泣いたり、二人で泣き明かした夜もあった。
    境遇を嘆くのも、この身を恨むのも、二人ですべてやり終えた。
    「…そういうのは、あいつが全部持っていってしまったんだ。」
    「じゃぁ、何が残っているの?」
    「あいつとの思い出かな。」
    見上げると高くなった空に白い煙がするすると登って行く。
    なあ、そっちはいい天気かい?慧音。
    ------前pixiv #4436257 »

    • ‹ prev Search: user:Tetrominon next ›
    • « ‹ prev Pool: Tragedy of a Long Life next › »
  • Comments
  • Recommended
  • Loading...

    dandan
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    so... so friggin' sad! Man, not fair, just no fair

  • 1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    The terror of immortality is eternal solitude.

  • 4
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    S1eth
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    I like the style of the picture, but wrinkled hands and a young face don't make any sense.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    S1eth said:
    I like the style of the picture, but wrinkled hands and a young face don't make any sense.

    Keine got old and sitting in her deathbed, as the Immortal Bird is next to her on her deathbed.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    FeKa
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    I think that Mokou is just imagining a young Keine there.

  • 5
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    dandan
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    that she is, FeKa. What Keine said, reminded Mokou of why she fell in love, I think

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    user 98142
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Keine is probably the only person who could relieve Mokou of her immortality, too. ;_;

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    葉月
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Humm, isn't Keine a youkai herself? I don't think youkai age the way humans do.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    NWF Renim
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    If I remember she's a half-youkai.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Suiseiseki
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Keine is a were-hakutaku, she is human except on the night of the full moon.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    about 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    proveyourself said:
    Keine is probably the only person who could relieve Mokou of her immortality, too. ;_;

    That's impossible, unfortunately. That would like be trying to erase an eternity.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Excorcise
    almost 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Eternity is cruel.../sob

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Robert3186
    almost 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:
    That's impossible, unfortunately. That would like be trying to erase an eternity.

    I've never bought that myself it's not like she was born that way it, it was a state induced by totally artificially means. If you ask me anything created by man can likewise be destroyed by him... it just takes the right method. Nothing is truly indestructible and nothing is truly eternal, not even the universe itself.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Keo
    almost 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    You guys forgot that Mokou still the Hourai Elixair with her. So Keine probably won't die, sorta. I mean, that is if Mokou would give it to her/have enough/have any left.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Megamet
    almost 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Robert3186 said:
    I've never bought that myself it's not like she was born that way it, it was a state induced by totally artificially means. If you ask me anything created by man can likewise be destroyed by him... it just takes the right method. Nothing is truly indestructible and nothing is truly eternal, not even the universe itself.

    Gensokyo does not work that way.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    almost 16 years ago
    [hidden]

    Megamet said:
    Gensokyo does not work that way.

    Exactly. But there are things eternal, such as time itself. Even if the universe ceases to exist, time will go on regardless. It goes infinitely into the past and infinitely into the future. It was never created, no beginning, and likewise, never can be destroyed, no ending. It was simply always there. Because not only the Hourai Elixir is Eirin's creation (with Kaguya's power of eternity), both Kaguya and Eirin are neither man nor human.
    Eirin is said to me omniscient. The characters for her kanji point her out as "eternally and all-knowing over an infinitely-extended area" giving her the title "mind of god". Surely, she would be able to make a medicine that permanently relieves one of death itself forever, and make it irreversible so there's no way to be changed back.

    The best way I see is that Mokou WAS born immortal. She always has been, always is, and always will be an eternal being, because she drank the medicine of eternal life, and because of that, she never had the ability to die. Even before she drank the Hourai Elixir.

    Yes, after all, she never had a choice. She's immortal.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Tomato Masochist
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    oh man, this got me bad! I'm still wiping my face, but this such an awesome pcture ;___;

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Justy
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Smoking kills, Mokou.

  • -1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Krugger
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    I had gotten over this and it comes back again and worse now we have that pool #1042 to rub the salt into this even worse

  • -2
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    ZeiZou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:
    *Wall of text*

    Gap hax, that is all.

  • -2
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    ZeiZou said:
    Gap hax, that is all.

    Only works on boundaries.
    Immortality is boundary-less.

    Forced to live forever... Never allowed to die...
    Yes, after all, she never dies. She's immortal.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Karmappi
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:
    Only works on boundaries.
    Immortality is boundary-less.

    I don't think you quite grasp the haxness of the 'hax' in "Gap hax"..

    Border of boundaryness and boundarylessness, anyone?

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Karmappi said:
    I don't think you quite grasp the haxness of the 'hax' in "Gap hax"..

    Border of boundaryness and boundarylessness, anyone?

    There is no such border. Manipulation of borders restricts itself to things that have borders. But immortality doesn't have borders, so immortality itself can't be manipulated.
    It would made sense, too. You can't "just change it back". That's why it's immortal.

    In any case, I could just as easily argue with "immortalityhax".

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    AbatedDust
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:There is no such border. Manipulation of borders restricts itself to things that have borders. But immortality doesn't have borders, so immortality itself can't be manipulated. It would made sense, too. You can't "just change it back". That's why it's immortal. In any case, I could just as easily argue with "immortalityhax".

    Okay Mokou, here's a question.
    The Hourai Elixir eleminates any influence of tine and space. However, one could possibly derive from what you said 5 months ago, that drinking the Hourai Elixir is a matter of fate/destiny, since that person would be unable to die even before they drank it (otherwise they would have never been able to drink it, no immortality, pime taradox, ect).

    So my question is this; would Remilia's ability to manipulate fate (possibly in conjunction with someone else's powers) be able to have any effect on this?

    I'm just trying to think outside the box here.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    AbatedDust said:
    Okay Mokou, here's a question.
    The Hourai Elixir eleminates any influence of tine and space. However, one could possibly derive from what you said 5 months ago, that drinking the Hourai Elixir is a matter of fate/destiny, since that person would be unable to die even before they drank it (otherwise they would have never been able to drink it, no immortality, pime taradox, ect).

    So my question is this; would Remilia's ability to manipulate fate (possibly in conjunction with someone else's powers) be able to have any effect on this?

    I'm just trying to think outside the box here.

    First let me point something out here. Whatever happens after Mokou drinks the Hourai Elixir (whether it's time/space/destiny/manipulation) happens AFTER she set her fate with the Hourai Elixir. This meaning, the destiny Remilia set is within the destiny Mokou has set for herself when she drank the Hourai Elixir. She won simply because she got to the goal first, and Remilia has no cards to play with. Even though she manipulates fate, Mokou made her own long before. Remilia would only be playing part of that destiny out if she gets involved.

    This would be speaking if the Hourai Elixir works via destiny manipulation.

    But I never really said it works that way. I said it makes one never able to die.
    The way I see it, that's all it does. Quite literally, it makes it impossible. I doubt it's by fate, more- it just can't happen. If Remilia would try to manipulate fate, well if it happens it would have to fall within parameters of possible things, right? After all, all fate and manipulation lies only within possible things, which is why fate and destiny isn't prone to eliminating Mokou forever. Mokou lost the ability to not exist. And for anybody who'd want to argue a way to be able to change her back, what if that's impossible too (hence why she's immortal)? Suppose in order to change her back, she'd have to be nonexistant for the standards to be met? But if she can't do that, then there you go. This is my best guess.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    AbatedDust
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Very nicely put.
    Man, this has really got me thinking.
    I'm gonna start working on some different methods.
    I'll get back to you on it.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Karmappi
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:
    In any case, I could just as easily argue with "immortalityhax".

    But that doesn't have as nice a ring to it as Gap Hax.. -µ-

    Anyway.

    From what we know of the elixir, it was made by the person known as Mind of God, the medicine remains in the person's liver and regenerates with them, and it renders the person unable to stay dead.

    We have been shown that Eirin is extremely loyal to Kaguya, and eternal existance, supposing it was possible, would be ultimately painful. If she truly was omniscient, and as protective of Kaguya as she is said to be, wouldn't she have considered this, and left a backdoor of sorts? Especially if she were to consider having to drink it herself..

    And if the elixir can regenerate with the person, it would be natural and/or tangible in some sense, and therefore removable, counterable, or otherwise possible to be affected directly.
    Although, whether the lost elixir would regenerate even if the person is not killed when removing it, or if it would accept the change like the memories the immortals have accumulated depends on how the elixir works, I suppose.

    Lastly, to expand on my earlier comment, the elixir stops them from staying dead, not from staying nonexistant; something that Yukari is arguably able to manipulate.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    RiderFan
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    @Karmappi:
    The elixir stays in the liver of the one who imbibed it. Anyone who happens to eat a piece of the immortal's liver also gains immortality as if they themselves had drank the elixir.
    Since the elixir separates the drinker from known reality it can be assumed that it partially places them in another dimension. Since part of their existence is part of another reality they can never truly be destroyed, the other-reality part will always regenerate the same-reality part.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Karmappi
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    RiderFan said:
    Since part of their existence is part of another reality they can never truly be destroyed, the other-reality part will always regenerate the same-reality part.

    Again, I bring up Yukari's ability. If this was the case, could she not just destroy the other dimension part, or remove it from its dimension? This, at least, is a confirmed part of her ability.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    RiderFan
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Border manipulation is not the same as making a gate.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Karmappi said:
    Again, I bring up Yukari's ability. If this was the case, could she not just destroy the other dimension part, or remove it from its dimension? This, at least, is a confirmed part of her ability.

    Her ability is to manipulate borders. In other words, THIS reality is the one she can manipulate. This reality is possible to mingle with because it's tangible- which is why she can do it.

    However if there was another reality entirely, like an existence of its own, Yukari just might get herself into whole different kind of work here. What if it doesn't work that way? What if, in a given situation, she'd have to somehow "enter" that reality to manipulate it? But, doing so she'd submit herself to the entirely new set of laws/binds/works that simply makes it impossible for her to tangle with it? Like I said before, what if Yukari must make Mokou nonexistant in order to manipulate her? Mokou can't do that, so Yukari can't either. It always comes back to the source.

    As for the whole Eirin deal, it may be possible she purposely put some loophole in the Hourai Elixir just so she can undo it herself. But that'd mean both Mokou and Kaguya isn't immortal. That'd also mean, that it wouldn't be called "the elixir of immortality/ eternal life".
    But it's true, she did really make it fullproof, hence why she regretted making such a thing. Both Mokou and Kaguya are invincible now. But now I'm stating what's a common fact. The only reason I went through all this is because people insist on challenging it.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Karmappi
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    RiderFan said:
    Border manipulation is not the same as making a gate.

    Many people would agree, but then, she does move around gaps between space most of the time..

    Mokou said:
    Her ability is to manipulate borders. In other words, THIS reality is the one she can manipulate. This reality is possible to mingle with because it's tangible- which is why she can do it.

    She can manipulate things that are not tangible, though, as demonstrated when she made it possible to enter the moon through its reflection. And that was a thousand years ago, when she was only 200 or so.
    And even if that falls within your point because the illusion existed in this world, I can point out further that she has manipulated borders between realities, or dimensions, such as when making it possible to move between the afterlife and our world.

    Mokou said:
    However if there was another reality entirely, like an existence of its own, Yukari just might get herself into whole different kind of work here.
    What if it doesn't work that way?
    What if, in a given situation, she'd have to somehow "enter" that reality to manipulate it?
    But, doing so she'd submit herself to the entirely new set of laws/binds/works that simply makes it impossible for her to tangle with it?

    "What if she could not" isn't what you should be proving, it's "why she could not".
    And still; If part of our reality's Mokou is part of that dimension, it means there is a way for a part of our world to become tangible in the other. Working from there, it should be possible for a way for someone to affect that part of Mokou, and possibly destroy and/or return it to our reality.

    Mokou said:
    Like I said before, what if Yukari must make Mokou nonexistant in order to manipulate her?

    Making her nonexistant is what she is there to do, or stopping the elixir from keeping her alive and making it possible to kill her.

    Mokou said:
    Mokou can't do that, so Yukari can't either. It always comes back to the source.

    What?
    The whole point of including Yukari in this was to do something Mokou couldn't do, which Yukari would be able to do due to the nature of her power.
    Did I miss something, or..?

    Mokou said:
    As for the whole Eirin deal, it may be possible she purposely put some loophole in the Hourai Elixir just so she can undo it herself. But that'd mean both Mokou and Kaguya isn't immortal. That'd also mean, that it wouldn't be called "the elixir of immortality/ eternal life".

    Commonly immortality means you can't die, and you'll live forever.
    Dying is something they can, and do, exhibit often. Thus their bodies are not eternal.
    Existing until nothing exists is as eternal as it's going to get, and with the proved existence of an afterlife, their body could die and they would still be eternal, like everything else.
    Even if it was possible to stop them from being immortal, wouldn't mean they never were immortal. Being immortal means you will not die, not that you will never die. Consider a man who is destined to die in exactly three weeks. Until that time, he cannot die, and is therefore, immortal.

    Therefore, it is very much possible for it to be called what it is, while still allowing them to die, more than they already can.

    Mokou said:
    But it's true, she did really make it fullproof, hence why she regretted making such a thing. Both Mokou and Kaguya are invincible now.

    She could just regret it for all the trouble it has caused.

    Mokou said:
    The only reason I went through all this is because people insist on challenging it.

    Well, what's an argument without opposing arguments? -µ-

    Also, sorry for any spelling mistakes, it's getting kinda early.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Tetsamaru
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Man, if the comment win pool still existed.........Good show fellows.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Karmappi said:
    She can manipulate things that are not tangible, though, as demonstrated when she made it possible to enter the moon through its reflection.

    Apperently, that isn't impossible BECAUSE she could do it. My point with that remains.

    Karmappi said:
    And still; If part of our reality's Mokou is part of that dimension, it means there is a way for a part of our world to become tangible in the other.

    The thing is, it's not. Mokou's existence is completely different entirely. She's invincible, and even Yukari admitted to that on Imperishable Night. Invincible in a sense that she cannot be manipulated even by Yukari. Yukari can't manipulate Mokou because she's simply not subject to the bounds of life and death. They don't exist. (she even said that herself)

    Karmappi said:
    Making her nonexistant is what she is there to do, or stopping the elixir from keeping her alive and making it possible to kill her.

    Mokou can't do that. Haven't you been listening? She lost the ability to, and impossible standards must be met to change that back around. And it's not the elixir keeping her alive. She's as good as already having lived forever.

    Karmappi said:
    What?
    The whole point of including Yukari in this was to do something Mokou couldn't do, which Yukari would be able to do due to the nature of her power.
    Did I miss something, or..?

    Yes. You're forgetting that Mokou can never die. Don't try to make the impossible- possible. The very reason why it's called impossible is because you can't do that.

    Karmappi said:
    Commonly immortality means you can't die, and you'll live forever.

    I agree with this part.

    Karmappi said:
    Dying is something they can, and do, exhibit often. Thus their bodies are not eternal.
    Existing until nothing exists is as eternal as it's going to get, and with the proved existence of an afterlife, their body could die and they would still be eternal, like everything else.

    This is the part you don't understand. They DON'T die. They can't, because they are immortal. Mokou stressed this about a dozen times in the game, and repetitively said "I can't die! Kaguya knows it but keeps trying to kill me anyway! I'm invincible! etc." Her canonical profile also pointed out she has a body that cannot be destroyed (yes, this also includes by your Yukari's power).

    Karmappi said:
    Even if it was possible to stop them from being immortal, wouldn't mean they never were immortal. Being immortal means you will not die, not that you will never die.

    Being immortal means that you can never die, yes. But if you can be manipulated and changed and then killed, apperently, you are NOT immortal, just because of the fact that you DID die. Do you understand this? Mokou must be unable to be manipulated in order to be truly immortal. It says that she is, so that's what she must be. It says it everywhere.
    Also, Mokou doesn't have an afterlife. She clearly said she can never see the netherworld. I'm starting to think you haven't played the game.

    Karmappi said:
    Therefore, it is very much possible for it to be called what it is, while still allowing them to die, more than they already can.

    To kill an immortal? It makes no sense at all.

    Karmappi said:
    Well, what's an argument without opposing arguments? -µ-

    Because people always challenge immortality. Somehow, they think "immortal" means "really hard to kill" or "can't be killed normally, you must do etc. etc. first". Immortality means you can't die at all. Period. Mokou IS immortal. She can never die.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    makkun
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    If I may add an argument, i think hourai elixir works just like a simple medicine. Just say your coughing and you drank cough medicine. The coughing's gone and you don't know how it works, where did the meds goes to, and when did it start curing your cough. It just gone, as simple as that. This means that Mokou won't know what the elixir do to her body and how it alter her condition. She just know that she's now immortal.

    Also, some of you may think that Keine can erase Mokou's immortality or the elixir's effect to her body for that matter. But I don't think she can do it, because of her ability's restriction. She can only erase history of something she knows how's the process and how's it happens. It's just like pressing the "undo" button. You can't undo text or files that you don't write or create.

    Then again, even if Keine actually able to erase the hourai elixir's effect, Mokou would be erased alongside the elixir simply because without the elixir, Mokou can't live more than 1000 years long and meet Keine after that. She'll be dead a long time ago rather than becoming immortal.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    makkun said:
    If I may add an argument, i think hourai elixir works just like a simple medicine. Just say your coughing and you drank cough medicine. The coughing's gone and you don't know how it works, where did the meds goes to, and when did it start curing your cough. It just gone, as simple as that. This means that Mokou won't know what the elixir do to her body and how it alter her condition. She just know that she's now immortal.

    Also, some of you may think that Keine can erase Mokou's immortality or the elixir's effect to her body for that matter. But I don't think she can do it, because of her ability's restriction. She can only erase history of something she knows how's the process and how's it happens. It's just like pressing the "undo" button. You can't undo text or files that you don't write or create.

    Then again, even if Keine actually able to erase the hourai elixir's effect, Mokou would be erased alongside the elixir simply because without the elixir, Mokou can't live more than 1000 years long and meet Keine after that. She'll be dead a long time ago rather than becoming immortal.

    If this is the case, Mokou would have died a long time ago. But then that means Keine wouldn't know of Mokou's existence. How would she be able to do it? It's like erasing your own birth. You can't do it if you don't exist, so therefore you'll live again. So Mokou may resurrect even from that. Truly, immortal.

    In any case, she cannot be destroyed. Suppose this, that elixir acts like a kind of boundary that separates the invincible entity in Mokou from the vincible one. Suppose that, erasing the elixir may make the opposite effect, that because there's no boundary, that invincible entity seeps into the past. If that's the case, erasing the elixir may make Mokou exist infinitely in both the future AND the past. Just like a Phoenix, she's reborn stronger than before.

    You don't kill Mokou. You only make her stronger.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Karmappi
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Whoops. Capital letters are serious business..
    I wish the preview worked with longer posts. -µ-

    Mokou said:
    Apperently, that isn't impossible BECAUSE she could do it. My point with that remains.

    The part you quoted was to refute your claim about Yukari not being able to manipulate intangible things, not that she could do the impossible.

    Mokou said:
    The thing is, it's not. Mokou's existence is completely different entirely. She's invincible, and even Yukari admitted to that on Imperishable Night. Invincible in a sense that she cannot be manipulated even by Yukari. Yukari can't manipulate Mokou because she's simply not subject to the bounds of life and death. They don't exist. (she even said that herself)

    The hypothetical situation that was brought up and used as an example was that the elixir moved part of the drinker into another dimension.
    My point was that in that case, a coordinated attack on both resulting in them dying at the same time would prevent either from reviving.

    Additionally, as demonstrated, the characters' dialogue can't be taken literally. While the border of life and death may not be present in Mokou currently, doesn't mean Yukari can't in any way manipulate her.

    Mokou said:
    Mokou can't do that. Haven't you been listening?

    I misunderstood your line, which caused some confusion, so the argument was a little off. Sorry.

    Mokou said:
    She lost the ability to, and impossible standards must be met to change that back around.
    --
    Yes. You're forgetting that Mokou can never die. Don't try to make the impossible- possible. The very reason why it's called impossible is because you can't do that.

    Trying to make the impossible possible isn’t what I’m trying to do; I’m trying to prove that what you call impossible is not impossible.

    Mokou said:
    And it's not the elixir keeping her alive. She's as good as already having lived forever.

    Mokou said:
    Being immortal means that you can never die, yes. But if you can be manipulated and changed and then killed, apperently, you are NOT immortal, just because of the fact that you DID die. Do you understand this? Mokou must be unable to be manipulated in order to be truly immortal. It says that she is, so that's what she must be. It says it everywhere.

    Unable to age and unable to die when killed do clearly indicate she is immortal.
    Immortality guarantees you can’t be killed, not that your immortality cannot be cancelled.

    Mokou said:
    Also, Mokou doesn't have an afterlife. She clearly said she can never see the netherworld. I'm starting to think you haven’t played the game.

    Hm, Yes, she did say that. She also said her danmaku would be my trauma.
    Just because she said it, doesn’t make it true.

    Mokou said:
    This is the part you don't understand. They DON'T die. They can't, because they are immortal. Mokou stressed this about a dozen times in the game, and repetitively said "I can't die! Kaguya knows it but keeps trying to kill me anyway! I'm invincible! etc." Her canonical profile also pointed out she has a body that cannot be destroyed.

    Every time her health is depleted, she dies and revives, which is what I meant by their bodies being capable of dying. And the canonical profile mentions Kaguya and Mokou kill each other on a daily basis, which is what I was referring to.

    That is, their bodies are not indestructible, nor are they invincible. The point of this, and the afterlife part, was to prove that being possible to undo wouldn’t mean the name of the elixir wouldn’t be what it is.

    Mokou said:
    To kill an immortal? It makes no sense at all.

    Mokou said:
    Because people always challenge immortality. Somehow, they think "immortal" means "really hard to kill" or "can't be killed normally, you must do etc. etc. first".

    Well, yeah. You can’t kill an immortal, so you have to make them mortal first. -µ-

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Justy
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Jesus Christ, this is the most horrid
    tl;dr I have ever seen around.

  • -1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Karmappi said:
    Whoops. Capital letters are serious business..
    I wish the preview worked with longer posts. -µ-
    The part you quoted was to refute your claim about Yukari not being able to manipulate intangible things, not that she could do the impossible.

    In order for it to be untangible it must be impossible to be tangible. It's common sense.

    Karmappi said:
    The hypothetical situation that was brought up and used as an example was that the elixir moved part of the drinker into another dimension.
    My point was that in that case, a coordinated attack on both resulting in them dying at the same time would prevent either from reviving.

    You're not listening. She's invincible. Her entity, it's invincible. A given moment where she does not exist can not happen. She's INCAPABLE of it. Third time I said this.

    Karmappi said:
    Additionally, as demonstrated, the characters' dialogue can't be taken literally. While the border of life and death may not be present in Mokou currently, doesn't mean Yukari can't in any way manipulate her.

    Actually, it's quite the opposite. Yukari's entire power relies entirely upon the existence OF borders. She's effectively powerless in making any changes to Mokou.

    Karmappi said:
    Trying to make the impossible possible isn’t what I’m trying to do; I’m trying to prove that what you call impossible is not impossible.

    What I'm trying to prove is killing an immortal is impossible. You can't really argue against that.

    Karmappi said:
    Unable to age and unable to die when killed do clearly indicate she is immortal.

    But you're not taking this to the fullest extent. If it's able to be manipulated, it's still essentially able to die and therefore mortal. That is NOT something immortal. In order to be unable to die, you DO have to take other factors such as this into account. Make it so she doesn't die anymore? Sure, but that's not enough to be called immortal. It could still be changed back and then killed and die. Obviously, that doesn't fit the definition.

    Karmappi said:
    Immortality guarantees you can’t be killed, not that your immortality cannot be cancelled.

    If you can't be killed, that also means you can't be changed back and then killed. Because anything other than that means you actually CAN be killed. You're twisting the definition.

    Karmappi said:
    Hm, Yes, she did say that. She also said her danmaku would be my trauma.

    Correction. She said it would be Remillia's trauma. She did refuse to use Mokou as an eternal blood fountain. She could be secretly scared of Mokou but just hiding it. Mokou certinally did scare Yuyuko, and that's a lot, to scare a ghost.

    Karmappi said:
    Every time her health is depleted, she dies and revives, which is what I meant by their bodies being capable of dying. And the canonical profile mentions Kaguya and Mokou kill each other on a daily basis, which is what I was referring to.

    They're immortal. She doesn't die and then come back-. She comes back because she can't die. that's why there's a resurrection. A given instant where she's dead isn't a part of her existence. You don't seam to grasp this concept. She may be blown up, but still very much alive. At least up to the point where she's SUPPOSED o be dead. That's when there's a resurrection.

    Karmappi said:
    That is, their bodies are not indestructible, nor are they invincible. The point of this, and the afterlife part, was to prove that being possible to undo wouldn’t mean the name of the elixir wouldn’t be what it is.

    Her canonical profile states she posseses a body that cannot be destroyed. Clearly, that does fit "indestructible". In addition, I already said Mokou can never see the netherworld. A given instant where she's dead doesn't exist. And if she can be changed back and then killed, she isn't essentially immortal. (which too, is in her profile). You seam to think immortality is a negatable thing. Let me give you the definition. [eternal life]

    Karmappi said:
    Well, yeah. You can’t kill an immortal, so you have to make them mortal first. -µ-

    The thing is you can't! That's why she's immortal!
    It's like me saying " that thing is invincible. How do you destroy it?" "Oh, just make it vincible again." How? It's invincible!
    The same goes for Mokou. She can't die. But you can't change her back, that's the very reason why she's immortal.
    It bothers me how people think. They mix up immortality with "something that can die, but is just really hard to kill. Or it must be negated First." Immortality means it can't die at all. That's the Only way it can work. And you should know that.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Before you even say anything, I can arguably say that being immortal means you can't be negated back. Because immortality means eternal life, and it's not eternal if it can be negated.
    There are things a lot like mock-ups of immortality, such as those you find in greek gods, where one god "becomes mortal and dies" at the hands of another god. But that means they weren't really immortal in the first place- just because of that little fact. And this is the reasoning people should have. It only makes sense.
    As far as Mokou is concerned, she is by all means immortal, stated by Mokou herself and the canonicle profile. There's even a mini-book narrated by her where she goes on about immortality and how she thinks she isn't alive in a way, seeing all living things must die but she is forever incapable of it.

    If you want to look at immortality as a power, of course it would look tangible and easily negatable. But in the context used here, it's more of a state. A state where death is essentially impossible, yielding abundant life and vitality.
    If there is a medicine that effectively and completely and permenantly eliminates death forever, only that can be considered to have enough standards to be called "the elixir of immortality", or "elixir of eternal life". It shouldn't just give you the potential to live forever, it should make death completely impossible. This is the only way to garauntee to live forever. Mokou drank this medicine, and now she is paying for it.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Cyberia-Mix
    over 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Hell yeah, same discussion on every images.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    user 300661
    about 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    If Keine really loved Mokou, wouldn't Keine take the Hourai Elixir too so they can stay together and support each other through eternity? Though it would be a painful process, removing an immortals liver and devouring it gives one immortality. Mokou, in her next death match with Kaguya, could weaken/knock out Kaguya and then tear out Kaguya's liver, cook it up a bit, and serve it to Keine. Keine is half-youkai, so she wouldn't object that much to human flesh. Its better than letting Mokou tear our her own liver. And with two immortals against one, Mokou can finally get straight wins against Kaguya, prompting Kaguya to finally put an end to these battles and move on.

    So much could be solved if Mokou just served an immortals liver to Keine. Either her's or Kaguya's. This is similar to the Sakuya problem: why doesn't Remi just turn Sakuya in a vampire? She's her master, so she gets to decide what happens to Sakuya, and as far as I can see she wants to keep Sakuya.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Baneslave
    about 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Only one thing can be said about this:

    "Reach for the Moon, Immortal Smoke"

  • 2
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Gambit
    about 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Manly Tears!

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    ByakuMouse
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:
    There is no such border. Manipulation of borders restricts itself to things that have borders. But immortality doesn't have borders, so immortality itself can't be manipulated.
    It would made sense, too. You can't "just change it back". That's why it's immortal.

    In any case, I could just as easily argue with "immortalityhax".

    You forget: Boundary of Life and Death

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    ByakuMouse said:
    You forget: Boundary of Life and Death

    You forget: "Free from the bounds of life and death, I'm as human as they come"-IN dialogue
    Thanks for playing

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Azuria
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Damn, that strip was depressing. Gotta stop reading these... ;_;

    On the topic of that interesting argument, it seems to me that Mokou's definition of immortality is different than Karmappi's...

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    sorewahimitsudesu
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    OK, a few points. First, Mokou mentioned that time exists outside the universe, existing before the universe, and persisting after its end. Modern physics disagrees. Strenuously.

    Mokou said:
    Before you even say anything, I can arguably say that being immortal means you can't be negated back. Because immortality means eternal life, and it's not eternal if it can be negated.

    You make the distinction between a power and a state of immortality, but even that doesn't quite capture it. The question you seem to be posing is whether immortality is a state or a nature. To clarify this distinction, a state is merely the condition something is in, while a nature is intrinsic to the thing.

    If immortality is a state, then it is entirely consistent to say that said state can be removed. To compare it to a similar notion, let us discuss agelessness. I could, in theory, be in a state of agelessness: that is, I do not age at all. If I began to age, then I would clearly not be ageless. However, just because I am not ageless now does not negate that I was ageless before, as I was clearly able to reap the benefits of agelessness for however long I WAS ageless. Likewise, in the case of immortality, it seems perfectly consistent to discuss being immortal before, and then ceasing to so be, and thus become mortal.

    However, you seem to be asserting a notion of immortality as an intrinsic nature. If there is such a nature, then it is indeed incoherent to discuss losing immortality, or, for that matter, gaining it. If a property is intrinsic to something, then it is the case that said property exists in that thing from its creation. It can only gain the property in the trivial sense that it only has properties when it comes into existence. This view is problematic in Mokou's case, because she explicitly GAINED immortality from drinking the elixir. As was just mentioned, you cannot gain an intrinsic property. If immortality was truly intrinsic in this case, then it would be incoherent to talk of the possibility of killing her even before she drank the elixir, and not just in a determinist sense (she is here now, so she wasn't killed, ergo she could not have been killed). And yet, it seems perfectly coherent to discuss if someone had killed her beforehand. Mokou seems to disagree, but I can honestly see no justification through evidence or intuition to support this, while I suspect that most people would intuitively agree with my assertion of the coherence of discussing Mokou's murder prior to Hourai. I conclude then, that immortality is NOT an intrinsic property in the case of the Hourai elixir.

    With that said, however, immortality, in order to have any real meaning, must be a highly existentially secure state. That is to say that in order for a being to really have immortality to begin with, it must be a state that is nigh impossible (though not necessarily absolutely impossible) to get rid of; otherwise, there is nothing to distinguish it from a simple difficulty to kill someone. Absent of any such probabilistic outliers, Mokou will live forever, and thus may be said to be immortal.

    In any case, she cannot be destroyed. Suppose this, that elixir acts like a kind of boundary that separates the invincible entity in Mokou from the vincible one. Suppose that, erasing the elixir may make the opposite effect, that because there's no boundary, that invincible entity seeps into the past. If that's the case, erasing the elixir may make Mokou exist infinitely in both the future AND the past. Just like a Phoenix, she's reborn stronger than before.

    I...what? The only way that I can see that this even begins to make sense is if you pre-suppose that Mokou (the character) was immortal and would be immortal even if she never drank the elixir. In your dualism of the drinker having an invincible and a vincible part, the Hourai elixir is not a boundary between the two, it IS the invincible part. Erasing the Hourai elixir would erase the invincible. How one could go about erasing the elixir is a formidible task, but it would NOT sensibly result in any retroactive super-invincibility. Your suppositions are outlandish.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    alot of stuff

    I understand where you're coming from, but you're not getting the point. You're trying to tell me, that Mokou cannot ever be immortal because, originally, she was a mortal who gained immortality. Now, state or otherwise, what I'm trying to say, is that such negation cannot exist. The Hourai Elixir, after all, is the elixir of immortality. It would be meaningless to create it in a way to allow room for such a negation to work once you've taken it, so you can only make it like a one-way door, if you want to stick to it's true meaning.
    Suppose she goes into an immortal state. In this immortal state, such negation no longer exists. Suppose she does not follow the same "rules" anymore. Take for example, when Mokou said she's no longer bound to the laws of life and death. That nature no longer exists. Why would the nature of negating that exist, if she's supposed to be immortal? After all, it is the elixir of immortality. Normally, you'd think that if you give her something you can take it away. But this isn't such a case, which is why immortality is so self-promoting.
    Again, it's meaningless to say "almost immortal". It's either completely impossible to kill her, or not. The elixir isn't a power. It releases privelege. If she lost the ability to change and die, she can't CHANGE back, either. It's only fair to make immortality it's true meaning. It is, after all, immortality. Anything else is meaningless.

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    I...what? The only way that I can see that this even begins to make sense is if you pre-suppose that Mokou (the character) was immortal and would be immortal even if she never drank the elixir. In your dualism of the drinker having an invincible and a vincible part, the Hourai elixir is not a boundary between the two, it IS the invincible part. Erasing the Hourai elixir would erase the invincible. How one could go about erasing the elixir is a formidible task, but it would NOT sensibly result in any retroactive super-invincibility. Your suppositions are outlandish.

    The elixir isn't invincible. It was confirmed that it can be destroyed. It's the person who tastes the elixir that becomes invincible.
    But allow me enlighten you a bit. The elixir makes the person invincible, that is undeniable. If that person has never taken it, that person would not become invincible. But if you're going to add magic into play and go back in time to stop this person from drinking such an elixir, that person would never have existed long enough and your purpose for going back in time would be lost. This prevents you from going back in the first place, and it's an automatic-resurrection thereon. It's like the "go back in time to kill your mother before you were born" incident. You can't do it if you don't exist to do it. This alone is enough to provide enough security.
    Granted, I proposed that Mokou became an invincible entity after she drank the elixir, and that anything to mess with any events of her or the elixir will backfire and make her completely eternal instead of from the moment of tasting the elixir and onwards, but... why not? It is, after all, the elixir of immortality. There is no "partial invincibility and super invincibility". It's either completely invincible, or not. If this method serves it's purpose and secure the cunsumer's existence, so be it. If there is an ability or possibility to mess with or alter the timeline, it's only fair that Eirin, who is omniscient, would already know of such a thing would design the elixir in this way (that is, the invincible entity that has partaken the elixir to not go away just because the person went from drinking the elixir, to not. After all, at a point in time, this person did originally take the elixir, it's this entity that cannot be destroyed and will penetrate through the timeline if it's security is threatend to make it impossible of any deprativity) to fullproof the medicine. Again, it is, after all, the elixir of immortality. And if you want to go as far as mustering up a way to disprove it, I can argue with that as well.
    But this is far beyond the original point.
    The one, true canonical fact is, anyone who takes the Hourai Elixir will never die. Mokou has lived forever, this is also in her IN profile. No logic can contradict this.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Flippernino said:

    What if Mokou had simply died by some random cause, prior to taking the Elixir? Based on your logic, you might argue that this is due to the influence of the future act of her taking the Elixir, but why should that be so? The argument for immortality induced by Hourai Elixir makes more sense to me.

    If she died by some random reason not by outside influence(such as future/intervention/etc) then so be it. If she died, she died, so what. But that's not what happened in the story. In the story, she drank the elixir and became immortal. If you wanted to use future play in this and "go back in time to stop her", she'd die a long time ago and the entire purpose for going back is lost, therefore resetting the entire scope back to the original. It nullifies itself whether it's direct or not, simply because the cause has to be there for an effect. If the effect nullifies its own cause, it only makes sense that the effect never happened. After all, it's cause- and effect. Another way to argue it is- if she became immortal she looses the ability and could no longer be susceptible to any form of change or manipulation to her existence at any point in her life, which would full well explain why she can't age get sick or die. I mean, if it's the elixir of immortality, the LEGENDARY Elixir of Eternal Life, why stop there? It's a legendary artifact, viewed to be forbidden to even have a taste even by the mysterious and powerful lunarians.

    But this is way beside the point. My point, that I'm trying to prove, is that immortal in this sense keeps its meaning. Too many people corrupt the definition to the alternative "extended life", such as those greek gods who are supposedly "immortal" but DIE at the hands of other gods. It just comes to show you that in the end, they were never really immortal in the first place, no matter what they said simply because they could and did die. I'm trying to argue that this isn't the case with Mokou, Kaguya, and any other immortal characters here in Touhou.
    Some people try to argue burning her liver will nullify the elixir and put an end to her. Others take a completely different route and add a character from Type-Moon like Shiki's Death Eyes and claim those are able to kill her.
    Both ways, if it really can, "immortal" wouldn't make any sense anymore. I could say "it's the taste, not the elixir itself, that made her realize eternal life" and "she has no dots because there is no fated destruction to pierce/induce".
    I'm all for fanworks and derivative stuff, but when people start to claim that as the canonical and apply their derivative to the original is where I point out that they crossed the line.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    ZeiZou
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    What makes you so sure the Hourai elixir wasn't flawed? Maybe the lunarians made a mistake. We only have Eirin and the lunarians' words for it.

  • 1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    ZeiZou said:
    What makes you so sure the Hourai elixir wasn't flawed? Maybe the lunarians made a mistake. We only have Eirin and the lunarians' words for it.

    We had a peak at Eirin's thoughts in CiaLR. It's already known that she's the "Brain of the Moon", her name translates to "Mind of God" and she's the only one capable of making the elixir (needless to say she's smart). It's also known she originally made it for Kaguya, who sought to see it for "selfish curiosity", and that it was that very same elixir that Kaguya left behind that Mokou consumed. We also had a peak in Eirin's thoughts in the chapter, and there isn't even as much as a hint that she sabotaged her own work.
    If there is a problem with it, then there's a problem with it. It's not like I'll argue against that if it really is the case. But from what I see, it's pretty foolproof. Besides, if you were right and it wasn't, why would it be so forbidden, that even the princess of the moon herself became banished for just a few tastes of it?

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Asagami
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    uhh...
    time to overkill this:

    Yukari-chan opens a gap to a black-hole,throws Mokou-chan in it..and leaves her to rot...

    If she can't even get out of Earth-if she did,she could just go Berzerk and go straight for the Moon to have a crack on Kaguya-chan-,then there's no way she can get out of a Black-Hole ^_^

    oh yeah..i dont take her IN Dialouge to literally..she was,and still is, a Noble..so yeah..boasting is more common :P

    That overkills it...instantly ^_^
    Ok lets move on now and start crying on how sad Immortality is >_<

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    almost 15 years ago
    [hidden]

    Asagami said:

    way too many emoticons

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Yumi Hirugani
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    The fact that the comments are longer than the image itself amazes me.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    sorewahimitsudesu
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    Ok, how about this: Yog-Sothoth. Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all time and space, and is thus able in its natural state to manipulate events at any point in space-time. Thus, Yog-Sothoth exists at the same time and place as both mortal Mokou and immortal Mokou. Yog-Sothoth chooses to kill mortal Mokou. Immortal Mokou ceases to be, because her gaining immortality never came about (she died before it happened). Yog-Sothoth still exists at all points of time simultaneously, so it retained its "motivation" for killing her even after doing so (it gets around your appeal to the time travel paradox).

    Yog-Sothoth>>>>Everything

    If we wish to stay "in-universe," consider that Yukari need only manipulate the boundaries of time and space in herself to achieve more or less the same results.

    Also, as I hoped to mention before but now realize I didn't, it is highly contestable whether or not the consumer of Hourai can outlive the universe itself. It is quite possible (I would go so far as to say likely) that with the ending of the universe, so too would the existence of one who imbibed the elixir be ended.

    Basically, surefire candidates for killing someone under the effects of Hourai are Yog-Sothoth and Yukari, and the debatable candidates, the natural or non-natural ending of the universe (by, say, a Lovecraftian elder god).

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    Ok, how about this: Yog-Sothoth. Yog-Sothoth is coterminous with all time and space, and is thus able in its natural state to manipulate events at any point in space-time. Thus, Yog-Sothoth exists at the same time and place as both mortal Mokou and immortal Mokou. Yog-Sothoth chooses to kill mortal Mokou. Immortal Mokou ceases to be, because her gaining immortality never came about (she died before it happened). Yog-Sothoth still exists at all points of time simultaneously, so it retained its "motivation" for killing her even after doing so (it gets around your appeal to the time travel paradox).

    Yog-Sothoth>>>>Everything

    If we wish to stay "in-universe," consider that Yukari need only manipulate the boundaries of time and space in herself to achieve more or less the same results.

    Also, as I hoped to mention before but now realize I didn't, it is highly contestable whether or not the consumer of Hourai can outlive the universe itself. It is quite possible (I would go so far as to say likely) that with the ending of the universe, so too would the existence of one who imbibed the elixir be ended.

    Basically, surefire candidates for killing someone under the effects of Hourai are Yog-Sothoth and Yukari, and the debatable candidates, the natural or non-natural ending of the universe (by, say, a Lovecraftian elder god).

    That's very far-fetched, not to mention not even Touhou related. In any case, the elixir of immortality is the elixir of eternal life, isn't it? I did say before that manipulating any natural events can backfire. Like a Phoenix, she'd come back at an even greater magnitude. Since Mokou was originally destined to drink the elixir and become invincible, that invincible entity cannot be destroyed no matter what you do. If you're going to pull her away from the elixir in a world where she drank it, that entity was pre-made before she even drank it. If that's the case, than as I said before, taking away the elixir might backfire and make her live , instead from the moment she drank it to forevermore, but forever in the past as well. If you'll take away that 'start', it will no longer need one either. Yukari acknowledged Mokou was invincible, and several others as well. From what she's described, Mokou doesn't "come back to life from the dead". She resurrects because she can't perform the action of dying. Even if you obliterate her to a billion pieces and scorch the ashes to nonexistence, she'll be there because not existing, or death, is the very thing she is unable to do. Even if you put an end to the universe (how in the world can someone even go about that?), it's possible to say Mokou is a universe in and of herself if that'd be the case, because even if everything around her will perish, she certainly won't.
    Moreover, even if a being that exists in all aspects of time has an ability to manipulate events in it changes something, that time-paradox I implied earlier still applies. I could argue it the same way again even with Yog-Sothoth, because if he kills Mokou before she drank the elixir (I'm implying in terms that the elixir isn't full-proof and this wouldn't backfire), any and all events of Mokou from that point forward do not exist. He won't have the motivation to kill her, because she never existed in the first place. You can't remember something that never happened, after all. So even with that, ironically, she won't die.
    More importantly, why are there debates over this? It's made quite clear it's impossible to kill her, via any means. Certainly, it's no big deal. Even if she won't die, she could be sealed up in a lost place forever. The way I see it, not being able to kill her is just a cherry pick to get rid of one of the infinitely many ways to get rid of her.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    sorewahimitsudesu
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    @Mokou
    Last I checked, Yukari is not omniscient. As in, she could very well fail to realize how she might kill Mokou if she were so inclined (and based on the text, she's more interested in just hurting Mokou than killing her). You really haven't addressed that Yukari can do the same thing as old Yog-Sothoth, if in a more roundabout manner.
    Right now though, you're making a slightly more interesting claim than you've been making. Namely, that in drinking the Hourai elixir, a whole new being, one that is immortal, comes in to existence. This gets around my previous objection of immortality as a state vs. nature.

    If you're going to pull her away from the elixir in a world where she drank it, that entity was pre-made before she even drank it.

    This line, however, doesn't really make any sense, and your "argument" rests upon it. How can you really say that the Immortal Mokou existed beforehand? Nothing about Mokou drinking the elixir necessitates that the immortal version of her existed beforehand. I'd say it makes more sense to say that the immortal Mokou was in fact created at that moment; after all, if the immortal version existed before, when was it made? Where was it? If it always existed, then your claim about her BECOMING retroactively immortal is nonsensical. Furthermore, just because something has forward existential security does not mean that if their origin point is removed, then they suddenly start existing further back in the past. "If you'll take away that 'start', it will no longer need one either," is completely wrong. If I tell you to count from 1 to infinity, but 1 somehow ceases to exist when you get to 50, it doesn't mean you started counting at negative infinity, or negative anything, or even zero. At best it means that you basically started at 2 and counted onwards, and at worst renders everything you've counted unintelligible. Alternatively, I tell you to count from 1 to 50, except that when you get to 14, start counting to infinity instead. If I prevent you from going past 10 (Through ANY means), you WILL NOT be counting to infinity. Nor, for that matter, will it mean that you started counting at some number other than 1. Replace counting numbers with years of age and this would simulate Mokou's case almost exactly.

    As for understanding the end of the universe bit, you need to recognize that non-existence and death are distinct things in dualism (in worlds where some sort of soul exists). As Alice points out, the soul of the drinker of Hourai is made immortal and re-creates a body if it (the body) is destroyed. Souls seem to be vulnerable in this series only while not housed in a body; Thus the Hourai soul, which eternally re-creates its body, is invulnerable. However, this does not preclude it from simply ceasing to be, e.g. when all existence ceases (such as the universe ending). And no, Mokou being a universe in and of herself is silly.

    Furthermore, the point about it being impossible to kill her isn't quite as air-tight as you claim it is. Yuyuko's dialogue about "the cycle of Hourai [ending]" seems to imply that the effect can be undone. Other dialogue implies that the elixir actually resides in the liver of the drinker. One then wonders how a destroyed body can be re-created. Your arguments against this have basically amounted to, "nope, she's immortal, so these must be wrong." Well, even assuming your definition of immortality, maybe she isn't as immortal as you or she thinks she is. She also thinks Kaguya created the elixir so clearly she can be wrong about it. Most likely, her knowledge of being "immortal" is that no one has been able to kill her, she is immune to natural death from, say, illness (whether she can actually get ill is a bit more contentious), and she doesn't age.

    Anyways, I have spent far more time on this than I should, so peace out.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    Last I checked, Yukari is not omniscient. As in, she could very well fail to realize how she might kill Mokou if she were so inclined

    She's not omnipotent either. After all, her power is one that manipulates boundaries. If she annialated every boundary known, everything would exist as "one enormous object", according to her Perfect Memento, meaning she can't destroy the universe. In any case, if death doesn't exist, it doesn't matter where she puts a boundary of life and death because there's life on both sides.

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    This line, however, doesn't really make any sense, and your "argument" rests upon it. How can you really say that the Immortal Mokou existed beforehand? Nothing about Mokou drinking the elixir necessitates that the immortal version of her existed beforehand. I'd say it makes more sense to say that the immortal Mokou was in fact created at that moment; after all, if the immortal version existed before, when was it made? Where was it?

    I could easily say that the passage of time doesn't 'build as it goes' but is rather pre-made, due to destiny. If you have a set of factors or conditions in an environment, then what's set is set, and the future was 'built', so to speak. I'm implying that the invincible entity was pre-built, and is manifested as Mokou, the Hourai Incarnate.

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    If it always existed, then your claim about her BECOMING retroactively immortal is nonsensical. Furthermore, just because something has forward existential security does not mean that if their origin point is removed, then they suddenly start existing further back in the past. "If you'll take away that 'start', it will no longer need one either," is completely wrong. If I tell you to count from 1 to infinity, but 1 somehow ceases to exist when you get to 50, it doesn't mean you started counting at negative infinity, or negative anything, or even zero.
    Alternatively, I tell you to count from 1 to 50, except that when you get to 14, start counting to infinity instead. If I prevent you from going past 10 (Through ANY means), you WILL NOT be counting to infinity. Nor, for that matter, will it mean that you started counting at some number other than 1. Replace counting numbers with years of age and this would simulate Mokou's case almost exactly.

    On the contrary, if you tell me to count one to infinity and prevent me going further from 10, wouldn't counting negative infinity to 0 be the the equivilent substitute? Going beyond that, I could say 1, 1.1, 1.11, 1.111... forever, and I won't even need infinity as a factor to count infinitely. Moreover, I hardly see how this 'example' is tantamount to Mokou's case.

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    As for understanding the end of the universe bit, you need to recognize that non-existence and death are distinct things in dualism (in worlds where some sort of soul exists). As Alice points out, the soul of the drinker of Hourai is made immortal and re-creates a body if it (the body) is destroyed. Souls seem to be vulnerable in this series only while not housed in a body; Thus the Hourai soul, which eternally re-creates its body, is invulnerable.

    First, correcting that quote, she said soul(S) are invincible because they take no physical shape or form, regardless weather they are embodied or not. Of course, she didn't make the Hourai Elxir, so even she doesn't know exactly what it did to Mokou. She simply implied a scenario of possible immortality.

    sorewahimitsudesu said:
    Furthermore, the point about it being impossible to kill her isn't quite as air-tight as you claim it is. Yuyuko's dialogue about "the cycle of Hourai [ending]" seems to imply that the effect can be undone. Other dialogue implies that the elixir actually resides in the liver of the drinker. One then wonders how a destroyed body can be re-created. Your arguments against this have basically amounted to, "nope, she's immortal, so these must be wrong." Well, even assuming your definition of immortality, maybe she isn't as immortal as you or she thinks she is. She also thinks Kaguya created the elixir so clearly she can be wrong about it. Most likely, her knowledge of being "immortal" is that no one has been able to kill her, she is immune to natural death from, say, illness (whether she can actually get ill is a bit more contentious), and she doesn't age.
    Anyways, I have spent far more time on this than I should, so peace out.

    Wow, some of this stuff was already resolved in the EXTRA stage itself. First off, she said that if a ghost drinks the elixir of immortality, it becomes eternally lost (a ghost forever), and the cycle of Hourai ends, as in that's the end of its effect. Second, if you read the passage of the liver-resides-in-the-body entirely, Mokou clearly stated "Even if you burn me, I won't die... but it'll be so hot. *sob*" It's also said that burning the liver looses the elixir's properties. Seeing Mokou manipulates fire, she's bound to have burned herself badly before, yet she's alive anyway. This clearly means the existence of the elixir itself within the liver has no effect on her whatsoever, it's the 'three tastes' alone that enlighten her.
    Moreover, Mokou's entire point in Touhou is "that person who can never die, and lived forever". It's screaming everywhere, form her PMiSS, to the stage text, to CiaLR narration. I could VERY easily argue, as you said "the point about it being impossible to kill her is quite as air-tight as I claim it is". It just so happens to be exactly the case.
    Finally, I'm only sticking to the true definition of 'immortality', instead of abiding by its 'extended life' counterpart. After all, if it's immortal, there isn't a way to kill it.

    By the way, you've still yet to explain me about this 'Yog-Sothoth' character. Even if he exists at all points in time, if he changes an event, the following things never happen. He cannot have memory of an event that never happened, so the paradox still applies.

    Well, seeing you've put your last words in the topic, I announce that this debate is over.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    LaserShark
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    I was going to ask why this is in Speculation Fuel.

    Then I scrolled down through the comments.

    I don't want to ask anymore.

  • -1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    ProbeDrone
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    @PEOPLE IN ARGUMENT:
    YOU ALL FORGET! This is Touhou! Check all logic and common sense at the door! THANK YOU!

  • -1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    coniineko
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    This makes me happy.
    Does that make me a bad person?

    Well I'm a TeruMoko fan so...
    You know what nevermind.

  • -1
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    OmniGman
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou's (that feels weird typing it, almost like I'm arguing with the actual character even though the poster is far more intelligent) argument seems to be based entirely upon the premise that the Hourai Elixir either makes Mokou immue to the effects of temporal manipulation, something we couldn't possibly confirm as their are no known time manipulators in Gensokyou (Yukari may have the potential but I doubt even she would risk creating time paradoxes just to kill someone who doesn't cause any real trouble) or that she is protected because of the time paradox clause (which only exists in certain works of fiction anyway).

    That said, there are time-manipulating characters in various other works of fiction who can recall what their worlds were like before time was rewritten (like the aforementioned Yog-Sothoth), and, in fact, many fictional stories revolve around the heroes somehow retaining memories of the previous worlds, so your "she's immune to time manipulation because it would create a time paradox" argument isn't necessarily concrete.

    Your "the Hourai Elixir itself makes her immune to temporal manipulation" argument can't be confirmed either as Eirin herself has never demonstrated time manipulation powers and Kaguya's "power of eternity" is so vaguely defined that we have no way of knowing how it works. It could just be that she can merely make inanimate objects last forever and Eirin somehow worked that into an immortality potion (it certainly doesn't confer actual eternal existence unto people or Kaguya wouldn't have needed the Hourai Elixir to begin with).

    It really depends on how ZUN himself (I swear I instinctly typed "ZUN 'it'self" before I realized what I had done and corrected it... creepy) inteprets time travel, and I somehow doubt it'll ever get brought up in the games or even in the various spin-off manga.

    That said, someone nicknamed "the Mind of God" (as you so often commented on) should certainly be capable of one day undoing something she created (even if she would need centuries of study to figure it out), otherwise you have that old "if God is omnipotent can he create a rock so heavy he himself can not lift it" argument, and that argument in of itself doesn't really hold water. Eirin isn't truly unfallible otherwise she'd be ruling the Touhouverse right about now (and she would have never lost in IN) instead of having spent centuries in hiding because she humored the whims of some spoiled brat.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    Mokou
    over 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    OmniGman said:

    Long story short, it's up to ZUN, and he's vague.
    ...
    ...
    That said, someone nicknamed "the Mind of God" (as you so often commented on) should certainly be capable of one day undoing something she created (even if she would need centuries of study to figure it out), otherwise you have that old "if God is omnipotent can he create a rock so heavy he himself can not lift it" argument, and that argument in of itself doesn't really hold water. Eirin isn't truly unfallible otherwise she'd be ruling the Touhouverse right about now (and she would have never lost in IN) instead of having spent centuries in hiding because she humored the whims of some spoiled brat.

    She does it because she felt guilty, even though she knew full well what she was doing at the time. I think she grew to regret it anyway, but that's all in her chapter in Cage of a Lunatic Runagate. But yes, your point was probably the most suffice of all the people who tried arguing with me.

    No, unfortunately, ZUN may have not have put in any direct words in the matter about Eirin or the Elixir, but, we had a peak in her mind in the chapter, and in Mokou's. As well as the game. With all of this put together, there is nothing that suggests that the Hourai Elixir isn't perfect. In fact, it's just the opposite. Both Eirin and Mokou acknowledged that anyone who drink the elixir will NEVER be able to die no matter what. You do have a point that if she's the 'mind of god', she'd be able to 'undo it', but I still have that "can god create a boulder he cannot lift" argument. She must intend for it to be permanent for it to be the true elixir of immortality. If she made it in such a way where the limited options she can take to undo its effects in the future are omitted and the person who tastes it are independent of such manipulations, then it's truly impossible to do that very thing. She'd know how it works, so there's no further researching needed. So long as she knew all of the materials she worked with to its full extent, she'd know herself it'd completely impossible because of those precautions she did in the past. To put short, it'd have to be fullproof, and we do know she intended it to be in her chapter in runagate.

    As for the time travel thing or history manipulating beasts, Keine is already such a phenomena. Ah, but even after she 'erased' the history in the events of the village in Imperishable Night from the hero characters (lets say Reimu and Yukari), that would pose many questions such as "How would Keine herself know of its existence to hide its existence, if it never happened?" The village had to exist to prevent these paradoxes. But ZUN is a clever fellow you see. The village was 'hidden', but for the erasing to happen, it also had to exist somewhere at the same time. Like a hidden parallel universe that's substituting for the real one. Yukari, being the boundary youkai that she is, saw right through this. This can give a vivid idea what ZUN's idea of 'time travel / history manipulation' is. And it makes pretty good sense. It's all the idea of time travel without the paradoxes.

    In the end, remember that it's the elixir of immortality, and there's no point to put in any room for a flaw or a fluke that would allow someone or something to somehow kill someone who tastes it. Mokou tasted this elixir and she lived forever. It's pretty much the end of the story (or never-ending, depending how you look at it). Indeed, it's even in her profile.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    gameboy3
    almost 14 years ago
    [hidden]

    This was the most ridiculous tl;dr thing I've ever read...

    Does anybody even know if Mokou is alive now? I'm not sure where I read it, but I think Mokou said (might not word for word, I can't remember it that well) that to be devoid of death is to be devoid of life.

    Also, Mokou lacks an "eye", as Flandre would put it, so her existence is absolute. There are no ways around it.

    Eirin being the "Mind of God" is still reasonable. Just because you KNOW how to do something doesn't mean you CAN do that. (You might have the methods to preform it, but you can't get the resources for it)

    Still, only ZUN would be capable of truly deciding something like this, but he did say that to have no end is to have no beginning... Wouldn't that mean that Mokou is no longer part of time?

    In the end, I think that Mokou (the poster, not the character) is the most accurate, even though he/she made a few mistakes (I won't look for them, it'd take too long).

    As an edit, I found out something interesting. There really are TWO forms of immortality. One form of immortality, which people keep saying Mokou has (and is the one most of us are familiar with), is technical immortality. She cannot be killed unless certain requirements are met to undo the immortality.

    However, the immortality Mokou has is absolute immortality, which is not reversible like technical immortality is. Mokou's immortality is, in effect, absolute immortality unless it turns out Eirin actually did leave a loophole in the Elixir.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    hentaiman6969
    over 13 years ago
    [hidden]

    Friggin Wall of TEXT!

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    JuanmaCarlos
    almost 12 years ago
    [hidden]

    Mokou said:

    The terror of immortality is eternal solitude.

    Say that to Vegeta.

  • 0
  • Reply
    • Copy ID
    • Copy Link
    I love you, Mokou.
    Terms / Privacy / Upgrade / Contact /