Nakayoshi Saber, introduced in lastest stream. Even tho all hints point to the Trung sisters , we gotta wait for confirmation in event. That said congratulation to the Vietnamese people for having one of their famous people as first representatives of South-East Asia in Fate.
Nakayoshi Saber, introduced in lastest stream. Even tho all hints point to the Trung sisters , we gotta wait for confirmation in event. That said congratulation to the Vietnamese people for having one of their famous people as first representatives of South-East Asia in Fate.
Even in danbooru someone has to spew bs like representation? Why dont you go over to twitter.
Even in danbooru someone has to spew bs like representation? Why dont you go over to twitter.
I never meant representation as in what you think it is (I certainly a LOT of venom to spit at Amazon's Lord of the Rings, as someone born of parents from SEA). At least, let's be honest and admit that some areas in the world needed to be explored, countries in area like South-East Asia are certainly not small in pool of famous people and legends. If anything I am just happy to see the company broadening their horizon and opening the door to people like Lady Ba Trieu, King Suryavarman II and many more. Last year, we had Dobrynya from Ukraine. And more Servants like those could make people curious about other myths or even their own in the case of various diaspora kids.
I am personally waiting for the aforementioned people, the Iron Mask, the Grimm Brothers, Lovecraft himself, Louis XIV and Yvain the Knight with the Lion.
Even in danbooru someone has to spew bs like representation? Why dont you go over to twitter.
This kind of representation and TWITTARD kind of representation is a very different can of worm - we didn't ask, but they gave us. Twittard? Threatening, insult, berated, mock, gaslighting, belittle you until you gave in.
I never meant representation as in what you think it is (I certainly a LOT of venom to spit at Amazon's Lord of the Rings, as someone born of parents from SEA). At least, let's be honest and admit that some areas in the world needed to be explored, countries in area like South-East Asia are certainly not small in pool of famous people and legends. If anything I am just happy to see the company broadening their horizon and opening the door to people like Lady Ba Trieu, King Suryavarman II and many more. Last year, we had Dobrynya from Ukraine. And more Servants like those could make people curious about other myths or even their own in the case of various diaspora kids.
I am personally waiting for the aforementioned people, the Iron Mask, the Grimm Brothers, Lovecraft himself, Louis XIV and Yvain the Knight with the Lion.
SEAsian here, though not Vietnamese, and totally agree about including heroic spirits from more regions. I personally want to see Badang since he's our version of Heracles (and a rag-to-hero one too!) + the guy seems like a real nice person in his legends.
Last year, we had Dobrynya from Ukraine. And more Servants like those could make people curious about other myths or even their own in the case of various diaspora kids.
While I agree that trying to teach people about cultures is important, Dobrynya is a really bad example, considering it's really one of those case they butchered the original character so, so hard for the sake of having a boobie cat girl.
It gives wrong impression to people ON PURPOSE. So unless people are actually willing to go dive and do the research themselves(which let's face it, most fans won't, especially not the one Dobrynya's design was meant to appeal to), they'll be walking away with a false image who is an in-name only adaptation.
While I agree that trying to teach people about cultures is important, Dobrynya is a really bad example, considering it's really one of those case they butchered the original character so, so hard for the sake of having a boobie cat girl.
It gives wrong impression to people ON PURPOSE. So unless people are actually willing to go dive and do the research themselves(which let's face it, most fans won't, especially not the one Dobrynya's design was meant to appeal to), they'll be walking away with a false image who is an in-name only adaptation.
Th artist they hired to draw Dobrynya is a known fan of Mithra from FFXI. added to the fact the hero in question had a wife who was also a monster girl, you can do the math naturally.
On top of that, despite you being "outraged" over her being a catgirl, I don't think the japanese audience cared that much. Or the Russians/Ukrainians for that matter.
While I agree that trying to teach people about cultures is important, Dobrynya is a really bad example, considering it's really one of those case they butchered the original character so, so hard for the sake of having a boobie cat girl.
It gives wrong impression to people ON PURPOSE. So unless people are actually willing to go dive and do the research themselves(which let's face it, most fans won't, especially not the one Dobrynya's design was meant to appeal to), they'll be walking away with a false image who is an in-name only adaptation.
King Arthur is a 15 year old girl with a black hole for a stomach and a perpetual existential crisis. Edison is a furry. Jack the Ripper is a thong wearing loli. It's a bit late in the game to be whining about misrepresented mythology. Anyone interested in mythology can probably figure out on their own that Dobrynya isn't really a big boobie anime catgirl, just like everyone knows Edison wasn't a fucking bara lion in real life. Plus, it's not even really Dobrynya, it's his wife using his name, so they didn't even actually make him into a catgirl.
King Arthur is a 15 year old girl with a black hole for a stomach and a perpetual existential crisis. Edison is a furry. Jack the Ripper is a thong wearing loli. It's a bit late in the game to be whining about misrepresented mythology. Anyone interested in mythology can probably figure out on their own that Dobrynya isn't really a big boobie anime catgirl, just like everyone knows Edison wasn't a fucking bara lion in real life. Plus, it's not even really Dobrynya, it's his wife using his name, so they didn't even actually make him into a catgirl.
Don't bother with azurelorochi, he's been a very adamant anti-fater. their hot takes about how the series never takes it's mythological/historical figures seriously is an amazing take in that the series is based on an eroge about a time displaced tweenaged girl arthur.
Th artist they hired to draw Dobrynya is a known fan of Mithra from FFXI. added to the fact the hero in question had a wife who was also a monster girl, you can do the math naturally.
On top of that, despite you being "outraged" over her being a catgirl, I don't think the japanese audience cared that much. Or the Russians/Ukrainians for that matter.
The point of this specific discussion is that people should learn stuffs about other cultures, which in this case the fact you and frankly, the fans who "don't care" seems to spell it out pretty damn clear that Fate clearly not only failed, but is not interested in teaching about other cultures, especially if whale money couldn't be made from it.
I really don't care what bad attempts at justification Fate puts up. The result is now when you ask millions of its very fans to imagine what "Dobrynya Nikitich" looks like, would they actually imagine a different image? What can they tell about the actual hero? I'm also sure most of them know King Arthur, Attila the Hun, Minamoto no Yorimitsu aren't women, but if they can't tell anything else beyond that, from a franchise that expects its fans to argue over the difference between Second Magic, Third Magic and Thaumaturgy, no less, then I'm calling it for the BS it is.
And I repeat, I only commented here in the first place because people was talking how important it is to learn about other cultures. If Raya and the Last Dragon could be criticized for failing to actually teach anything useful about it's inspiration culture, instead of ticking off minority checkboxes for the easy money, I don't think Fate is free from criticism from doing even worse a job.
I honestly question exactly why you keep coming to fate discussions with the exact same fucking stupid take when you know fate/grand order is a fucking fanservice game. You taking their stupid takes on their representations of heroes so seriously is both aggravating and baffling.
I honestly question exactly why you keep coming to fate discussions with the exact same fucking stupid take when you know fate/grand order is a fucking fanservice game. You taking their stupid takes on their representations of heroes so seriously is both aggravating and baffling.
I didn't dip into this conversation for over a year now. Note I never actually commented on an actual image with their version of Dobrynya.
I only commented on this one because the conversation is about fucking learning. Don't pretend like I'm always itching to jump into every pic every time Fate genderswapped another character.
I didn't dip into this conversation for over a year now. Note I never actually commented on an actual image with their version of Dobrynya.
I only commented on this one because the conversation is about fucking learning. Don't pretend like I'm always itching to jump into every pic every time Fate genderswapped another character.
You honestly seem to think that people seeing a Fate take on a hero will not make someone look them up if said take on said hero is interesting? You honestly think that. That is the part of your idiotic take that I can't parse since that is EXACTLY how people get into mythology.
Are you going to go to a current SMT conversation and complain that's not how a particular demon/ghost/hero/god/satan-analog looks like and will actively prevent people from looking into them? Because I will point and laugh at you until I pull a muscle doing so.
You honestly seem to think that people seeing a Fate take on a hero will not make someone look them up if said take on said hero is interesting? You honestly think that. That is the part of your idiotic take that I can't parse since that is EXACTLY how people get into mythology.
Are you going to go to a current SMT conversation and complain that's not how a particular demon/ghost/hero/god/satan-analog looks like and will actively prevent people from looking into them? Because I will point and laugh at you until I pull a muscle doing so.
Difference is SMT pays respect to their source materials. They depict their mythological characters with artistic freedom, of course, but they never fucking put them in bikinis just to bait for whale money.
Despite it's inaccuracies from day 1, I respect FSN and FZero because it was at least trying to be on that level. Medusa, Alexander, Gilles, Cu Chulainn, Gilgamesh were all inaccurate, but they were respectful. That's how you get people to want to learn more. If you capitalize on horniness, you're asking for an audience who doesn't want to use their brain. And just 10 minutes ago you yourself admitted the very fact that FGO is a fanservice game and people don't give a shit so if I happen to give that shit I'm wrong. That's either one major backpedaling, or you're a hypocrite.
Anyway, I'm not gonna reply any further exactly because I'm not the strawman you're trying to make me out to be.
The point of this specific discussion is that people should learn stuffs about other cultures, which in this case the fact you and frankly, the fans who "don't care" seems to spell it out pretty damn clear that Fate clearly not only failed, but is not interested in teaching about other cultures, especially if whale money couldn't be made from it.
I really don't care what bad attempts at justification Fate puts up. The result is now when you ask millions of its very fans to imagine what "Dobrynya Nikitich" looks like, would they actually imagine a different image? What can they tell about the actual hero? I'm also sure most of them know King Arthur, Attila the Hun, Minamoto no Yorimitsu aren't women, but if they can't tell anything else beyond that, from a franchise that expects its fans to argue over the difference between Second Magic, Third Magic and Thaumaturgy, no less, then I'm calling it for the BS it is.
And I repeat, I only commented here in the first place because people was talking how important it is to learn about other cultures. If Raya and the Last Dragon could be criticized for failing to actually teach anything useful about it's inspiration culture, instead of ticking off minority checkboxes for the easy money, I don't think Fate is free from criticism from doing even worse a job.
You have very confidently proven you have zero understanding of Fate beyond the character designs.
My friend's description of Van Gogh in FGO
Who for reasons unexplained is not the famous painter but actually an ancient Greek nymph fused with the painters sister and there's also an outer god involved in there somewhere
Van Gogh's description ingame
Default: A painter who was active in Europe in the nineteenth century. The work received high praise after death and has lovers all over the world. In historical fact, he is, of course, a man, as evidenced by his name, portraiture, and a few photographs.
On the other hand, this foreigner who called himself Van Gogh and appeared like a boy is different in appearance and gender from historical facts.
However, the artist is exactly Van Gogh. Eat big meals, make jokes, draw pictures and laugh gloomy.
As expected, its true nature is ---
Bond 2: The historical Vincent Van Gogh was born to the family of a minister of the Dutch Reformed Church in 1853. After working as an art dealer and clerk at a bookstore among others, and having his hopes of becoming an evangelist meet several setbacks, he set his aims on becoming a painter. After studying the Hague School, he was influenced by Impressionism and acquired his own unique style of painting.
After moving to Arles in France, he worked on a number of masterpieces such as the "Sunflowers", but due to his relationship deteriorating with Gaugin who lived with him, his mind became ailed and an incident where he cut his own ear off occurred. Afterwards, while suffering from fits of psychosis, he spent all of his time painting, and, in 1890, at the young age of 37, he ended his own life. It is said that there incomprehensible parts to his death.
He preferred using the color of yellow and sunflowers as motifs that symbolize sunshine. He also liked collecting ukiyo-e paintings and even incorporated them into the designs of some of his works. In his final years, he was taken with cypress trees, but another theory suggests that they were the subjects symbolizing his view on life and death.
All you care about is what they look like, a total hypocrite as you complain about FGO not respecting the history and myth it takes inspiration from. I wouldn't know half of what I do about the Arthurian Legends if not for Fate, I wouldn't know a lot of things about mythology if not for Fate presenting it in a strongly appealing way.
Difference is SMT pays respect to their source materials. They depict their mythological characters with artistic freedom, of course, but they never fucking put them in bikinis just to bait for whale money.
Despite it's inaccuracies from day 1, I respect FSN and FZero because it was at least trying to be on that level. Medusa, Alexander, Gilles, Cu Chulainn, Gilgamesh were all inaccurate, but they were respectful. That's how you get people to want to learn more. If you capitalize on horniness, you're asking for an audience who doesn't want to use their brain. And just 10 minutes ago you yourself admitted the very fact that FGO is a fanservice game and people don't give a shit so if I happen to give that shit I'm wrong. That's either one major backpedaling, or you're a hypocrite.
Anyway, I'm not gonna reply any further exactly because I'm not the strawman you're trying to make me out to be.
Kantai collection completely defeats this argument. On top of that, very very few characters debut in FSN in bikinis, and if they do, they gradually gain clothes over their ascensions, which also shows you know dick all.
And there's the bow out that always happens when someone challenges your very simplistic view.
Sigh, seriously for people who want me to walk away and ignore it, you people sure don't want me to go, huh?
cd_young said:
Kantai collection completely defeats this argument. On top of that, very very few characters debut in FSN in bikinis, and if they do, they gradually gain clothes over their ascensions, which also shows you know dick all.
Give example of those. Because here's a list of ones I can give that started off fully clothed but loses them in ascension: Artoria Lancer both versions, All 3 Fairy knights, Jack the Ripper, Attila, Abigail, Molay, Vritra. And that's not counting those that started in bikini and ended in bikini, or you know, the literal fucking swimsuit characters.
KanColle, Touken Ranbu, etc are different because they're fucking inanimate objects. The fact of humanizing them naturally gives more leeway and less restraint than dealing with actual figures with cultural significances.
blindVigil said:
You have very confidently proven you have zero understanding of Fate beyond the character designs.
All you care about is what they look like, a total hypocrite as you complain about FGO not respecting the history and myth it takes inspiration from. I wouldn't know half of what I do about the Arthurian Legends if not for Fate, I wouldn't know a lot of things about mythology if not for Fate presenting it in a strongly appealing way.
Note, I did say FGO disrespect it 90% of the time. You providing the 10% example doesn't disprove my point. Because in the other 90% of the time I see(Nobunaga, Attila, Yorimitsu) it used the usual excuse "recorded to be male but is actually female, or who knows?" or "it's an alternate version from another world, shrug".
I present these questions back to you: 1) What would Fate lose if they would also have accurate designs? Would YOU quit the game if the characters weren't genderswapped?
2) What benefits do they gain by INTENTIONALLY butchering the characters,(Note, talking about intentional, obvious cases like Nobunaga, where even the dumbest fan in Japan would know that it's a genderswap) if not to bait fans who exactly could not give less shits?
3) Fate is big enough that whatever it depicts becomes the dominant image in the mind of pop culture even without trying. Say purely for the sake of learning, how does it help to give an intentionally wrong image of the character to introduce them to a fresh audience? It's like saying your first course in geography should be learning that the earth is flat. Even if the following courses teach that that's not the case, its merely the case of fixing the damages Fate itself has done.
My argument is, and has always been that Fate could have stuck to its FSN/FZero days, treat its mythology source material with more respect, make all of its characters like the 10% exception you pointed out, and still make banks. The fact that it opted for this current route showed that getting that extra whale money is more important.
Also I never argued that Fate itself was simplistic. I already made the point that it is a franchise that demands you study it's goddamn world like you're taking a university exam, which again, is like the franchise already wanting the audience to take whatever it says and shows seriously. So the fact that you go back and forth between "stop taking the designs so seriously!" and "you don't take it seriously so you don't know shit!" is also very much another big issue in itself.
Sigh, seriously for people who want me to walk away and ignore it, you people sure don't want me to go, huh?
Give example of those. Because here's a list of ones I can give that started off fully clothed but loses them in ascension: Artoria Lancer both versions, All 3 Fairy knights, Jack the Ripper, Attila, Abigail, Molay, Vritra. And that's not counting those that started in bikini and ended in bikini, or you know, the literal fucking swimsuit characters.
The artist for both artoria Lancers admitted their third ascensions are just cheesecake for the sake of cheesecake and officially considers their second ascensions (Where they are helmetless but still fully armored) their canon portrayals, and the game does as well. Also, the summer servants are doing that, celebrating summer Anastasia even fucking shows up in Hawaii fully dressed in her 3rd ascension complaining about the heat for fucks sake. There are never new servants introduced during the summer events that are exclusively just there in a swimsuit for the sake of the swimsuit.
The three Fairy knights are shedding their Knightly aspirations and accepting they're fey and the calamities they really are Jack always dressed like she did she was wearing a cloak over her clothes. and her 3rd stage actually added her collection of knives, Atilla's outfit only lost the cloth around her stomach but gained that weird skirt wing thing, so no net loss. Abigail and Moley are possessed by unfathomable monsters that humanity can't understand, which is why their later staged are equally incomprehensible why a 13th century knight and a 12 year old from salem would dress like that at all. Vritra is still fully dressed, you're being nitpicky over an exposed stomach.
Also, Queen Zenobia. Who starts in a thong bikini, and while it's still cheesecake, ends in a dress. Bradamante is a special case in that she starts in a leotard, wears an overcoat, then goes into bikini territory, but that's explained in how her Shield works, it destroys clothes to power up. Calamity Jane, starts in a bikini top and daisies, ends in a showy, but one piece dress. And Finally, Artoria herself, she starts in just her dress. and ends in her full armor, plus a crown and an ermine cape.
Note, I did say FGO disrespect it 90% of the time. You providing the 10% example doesn't disprove my point. Because in the other 90% of the time I see(Nobunaga, Attila, Yorimitsu) it used the usual excuse "recorded to be male but is actually female, or who knows?" or "it's an alternate version from another world, shrug".
I love that two of your examples in your "misreprepresenting foreign mythology" arguement are Japanese figures. Apparently Japan can't do whatever it pleases with its own history and legends? Your questions are stupid so I'm not even going to bother acknowledging them. All they serve to do is prove that literally the only thing you care about is what the characters look like, just like the "horny fans" you keep griping about. You're just as shallow as the people you describe. Do you actually have an argument beyond "hurr durr tits bad why aren't they dudes"? It's just "swimsuit this, sex appeal that" with you.
Minamoto no Raiko's FGO description
A historical figure from the 10th-11th centuries. As founder of the Settsu branch of the Genji family, she contributed to the prosperity of the Seiwa Genji family. Crowned the strongest Mystic Slayer of the Heian period, she has dispatched many demons, such as Shuten-Douji of Mt. Ooe, the Giant Spider of Kyoto, and the Ox-Demon of Sensoji. Of course, this figure was historically a man. However, the secret of her birth is the reason for the gender change. She leads four retainers: Watanabe-no-Tsuna, Sakata Kintoki, Urabe-no-Suetake, and Usui Sadamitsu.
According to the traditional Japanese play "The Tale of Ushi Gozen"...
A child conceived by the Ox-King Gozu-Tenno was born into the household of Minamoto-no-Mitsunaka. This child, cursed as the offspring of an oni, was sent to a temple to be raised in secret.
At the age of 15, the cursed child took the name "Ushi Gozen" and created a demonic territory in Suzunomori, Shinagawa. The samurai who went forth to eliminate this menace was none other than the elder child of Minamoto-no-Mitsunaka, Minamoto-no-Raikou, alongside the Four Heavenly Kings.
"Ushi Gozen" was the reincarnation of Gozu-Tenno, and Gozu-Tenno was the reincarnation of Indra.
...Just who was Ushi Gozen? And what was the outcome of that fated battle? Only Minamoto-no-Raikou and Sakata Kintoki know the answer.
Also just so we're clear, Nobunaga, or at least the archer version, is the way she is because she's from a damned gag manga in the type-moon magazine. This is expressly addressed in the events she takes part in. Especially the events that are actually SERIOUS and have SERIOUS representations of her in them.
Tfw when swimsuit servants are not supposed to wear swimsuits
He always has the same argument about "muh history is ruined!" due to cheesecake or a character acting like a goofball. Not apparently understanding that interest can mean fucking anything and if a Servant is interesting people will investigate them. I don't know why he's so intent on trying to convince people that history needs to be 100% cereal bidness, and if he wants to be that much of a bug he can go play one of the fifty million other gatchas with more accurate heros.
Sigh, seriously for people who want me to walk away and ignore it, you people sure don't want me to go, huh?
Give example of those. Because here's a list of ones I can give that started off fully clothed but loses them in ascension: Artoria Lancer both versions, All 3 Fairy knights, Jack the Ripper, Attila, Abigail, Molay, Vritra. And that's not counting those that started in bikini and ended in bikini, or you know, the literal fucking swimsuit characters.
KanColle, Touken Ranbu, etc are different because they're fucking inanimate objects. The fact of humanizing them naturally gives more leeway and less restraint than dealing with actual figures with cultural significances.
Note, I did say FGO disrespect it 90% of the time. You providing the 10% example doesn't disprove my point. Because in the other 90% of the time I see(Nobunaga, Attila, Yorimitsu) it used the usual excuse "recorded to be male but is actually female, or who knows?" or "it's an alternate version from another world, shrug".
I present these questions back to you: 1) What would Fate lose if they would also have accurate designs? Would YOU quit the game if the characters weren't genderswapped?
2) What benefits do they gain by INTENTIONALLY butchering the characters,(Note, talking about intentional, obvious cases like Nobunaga, where even the dumbest fan in Japan would know that it's a genderswap) if not to bait fans who exactly could not give less shits?
3) Fate is big enough that whatever it depicts becomes the dominant image in the mind of pop culture even without trying. Say purely for the sake of learning, how does it help to give an intentionally wrong image of the character to introduce them to a fresh audience? It's like saying your first course in geography should be learning that the earth is flat. Even if the following courses teach that that's not the case, its merely the case of fixing the damages Fate itself has done.
My argument is, and has always been that Fate could have stuck to its FSN/FZero days, treat its mythology source material with more respect, make all of its characters like the 10% exception you pointed out, and still make banks. The fact that it opted for this current route showed that getting that extra whale money is more important.
Also I never argued that Fate itself was simplistic. I already made the point that it is a franchise that demands you study it's goddamn world like you're taking a university exam, which again, is like the franchise already wanting the audience to take whatever it says and shows seriously. So the fact that you go back and forth between "stop taking the designs so seriously!" and "you don't take it seriously so you don't know shit!" is also very much another big issue in itself.
I went to check up on that losing clothes bit and other than the ones you mentioned, a larger percentage of female servants actually gain armour or clothing. Saber Saber-faces (god that sounds weird to read) tend to lose clothing, same for their lancers, but overall probably 75% of the female servants gain clothing as they ascend, a big example is the entire Rider, Caster and Assassin cast. Weirdly, the type of girls most likely to lose clothing seem to be lolis... yeah.
As for the bait thing, well perhaps it's to open up for more marketing but I would say most people will generally take the notion that the game version is obviously not going to be 100% accurate. Same thing can be said for most of the male versions of the servants, Gilles de Rais was not some boggle eyed weirdo with flamboyant clothing, Iskander (Alexander the Great) was not some huge macho man, Lancelot was not a purple armoured skinny man and Gilgamesh was definitely not a blonde haired golden armoured bishounen who shot lasers from a sword. The game just takes liberty of the entire history section but does do it justice with certain parts, such as establishing the original character (most of the time). It gets people interested in it by baiting perhaps, but obviously most will also look up the original to see what sort of accomplishments they were famous for. The fact it has the wrong sex and design isn't really relevant when it comes to the game, but I can understand your frustrations, since at times it can feel like a bit of a cash grab, but in the end it is a gacha game after all and we can enjoy it nonetheless.
azurelorochi said: 3) Fate is big enough that whatever it depicts becomes the dominant image in the mind of pop culture even without trying. Say purely for the sake of learning, how does it help to give an intentionally wrong image of the character to introduce them to a fresh audience? It's like saying your first course in geography should be learning that the earth is flat. Even if the following courses teach that that's not the case, its merely the case of fixing the damages Fate itself has done.
Wait, people use videogames as means of deep accurate learning sources? You mean, the videogames where plumbers fight dragons, where police fights zombies, where hedgehogs fight scientists?
We had "Brave Fencer Musashi" on PS1, where Musashi is a child who saves a princess from a mechanical empire.
I mean, while there exists the concept of edutainment, saying all representation must be accurate to avoid miseducation is too much. People using means of entertainment as their sole source of education are the ones at fault.
Even if the portrayals are not accurate, they can and have inspired people to read up on the source materials. There's a reason why bookstores have used FGO characters to promote biographical or mythological books.
Even if the portrayals are not accurate, they can and have inspired people to read up on the source materials. There's a reason why bookstores have used FGO characters to promote biographical or mythological books.
I cant recall which French philosopher have said that one need to sweeten the bitter food a child may not want to eat to make him curious about that food, as a way to educate him. I'd like to think that FGO is that roundabout way to get people interested in stories that are usually outside of their zone of comfort. How many would have known about that female knight who starred in what is pretty much an Italian fanfiction of Charlemagne's chansons de geste? That's just an example among others.
Ignoring the entire discussion about respecting mythologies and whatever, I don't really follow the point you're making about Van Gogh. The in-game description gives some history of Van Gogh, sure, but then Bond 4 happens and goes on to confirm that the character is essentially not actually Van Gogh at all in anything but name, much like your friend's description kickstarting an entire year where like half of the Servants released had some similar twist to them where they were not in fact who they were introduced as or who they were said to be, FUN If nothing else I feel like Van Gogh is a perfect example of doing bullshit with a character imo, they sell the character as Van Gogh and then just go "haha syke actually it's not Van Gogh at all btw :)", and it's like, that's it that's Fate's Van Gogh and it's not even actually Van Gogh at all. Kinda blows. Kinda like how they released Calamity Jane but actually it's some space universe stuff and so we're probably never getting 'actual regular Calamity Jane'.
I have never seen a more stupid argument in my life. Why is this guy not blocked yet?
Not sure what you all want from me. I literally shut up and left you all in peace for 2 years exactly because I'll never get an honest debate here and it's all about people ignoring everything I say just to strawman me. Even on this one I know when to back down when it became clear you're not interested in listening to my opinion and it's just a waste of everyone's time.
Yet you and cd young still like to treat like I'm harassing every Fate image on this site ever. If anything this proved my point that you're all more interested in attacking my person more than attacking my opinions. It's as if my biggest sin isn't that I have a "bad opinion" but it's that no one's allowed to criticize your gacha megafranchise ever.
Ignoring the entire discussion about respecting mythologies and whatever, I don't really follow the point you're making about Van Gogh.
My point was that the character profiles do actually provide accurate information of the historical figure. Because the argument was about "learning history/mythology" while azurelorochi was trying to insist that FGO players were "learning inaccuracies" or whatever just because some characters have been genderswapped.
Yes, the character is, immediately in fact, revealed to not actually be the real Van Gogh, but you'll still learn something about the actual Van Gogh if you bother to read his profile.
azurelorochi said:
Not sure what you all want from me. I literally shut up and left you all in peace for 2 years exactly because I'll never get an honest debate here and it's all about people ignoring everything I say just to strawman me. Even on this one I know when to back down when it became clear you're not interested in listening to my opinion and it's just a waste of everyone's time.
Yet you and cd young still like to treat like I'm harassing every Fate image on this site ever. If anything this proved my point that you're all more interested in attacking my person more than attacking my opinions. It's as if my biggest sin isn't that I have a "bad opinion" but it's that no one's allowed to criticize your gacha megafranchise ever.
You came into a discussion about learning about myths from FGO and claimed that nobody was learning anything because the characters were being genderswapped and sexualized, which has been proven to not even apply to a majority of the cast. You just cherry picked the handful of pertinent female examples, both ignoring many of the male characters not accurately representing their historical physical descriptions either, but I guess that's okay because at least they aren't wearing bikinis, and the wealth of factual information found in most character profiles, both male and female.
Maybe if your opinions of FGO didn't focus exclusively on genderswaps and sexualization and completely ignore actual facts, people wouldn't feel so much like you were arguing in bad faith.
My point was that the character profiles do actually provide accurate information of the historical figure. Because the argument was about "learning history/mythology" while azurelorochi was trying to insist that FGO players were "learning inaccuracies" or whatever just because some characters have been genderswapped.
Yes, the character is, immediately in fact, revealed to not actually be the real Van Gogh, but you'll still learn something about the actual Van Gogh if you bother to read his profile.
You came into a discussion about learning about myths from FGO and claimed that nobody was learning anything because the characters were being genderswapped and sexualized, which has been proven to not even apply to a majority of the cast. You just cherry picked the handful of pertinent female examples, both ignoring many of the male characters not accurately representing their historical physical descriptions either, but I guess that's okay because at least they aren't wearing bikinis, and the wealth of factual information found in most character profiles, both male and female.
Maybe if your opinions of FGO didn't focus exclusively on genderswaps and sexualization and completely ignore actual facts, people wouldn't feel so much like you were arguing in bad faith.
My arguments was never limited to genderswaps and sexualizations, I could easily apply it to other characters like Astolfo, Edison, Babbage, Charlemagne and Arjuna Alter. Why didn't I raise those examples? One because Fate is most famous for its genderswaps, two because it's just going to become whatabouttism where "why are you okay with SMT but not okay with FGO", and third because I saw that even with the one argument alone, most people already aren't listening.
It's a frustrating dilemma of internet debates. You give too few examples, people say you're making arguments in bad faith, you give too many examples, they tl;dr you. cd young for example, just jumped on me and go "don't listen to this guy" no matter what I say, treating me like a plague even though again I did shut up for 2 years. Either way since they already stopped listening it's pointless to continue talking any further so I did left you guys alone. But hey, a week later someone's still coming to say I need to be banned. So yeah, it's not really making a case that "your side" is making arguments in good faith either.
Hell, in my very first post I compared FGO to Raya and the Last Dragon, a Disney film that attempted to score the cultural brownie points by doing half-assed mishmashs and attempting to pass it off as genuine representation. Raya rightfully got criticized over this, it doesn't matter that of course, you can actually still learn about SE Asia culture if you yourself go dive for all its inspirations, but the fact that Raya ended up BS-ing half of its stuffs and pretending that it's true is still an issue. It's like 4Kids trying to "censor" rice balls into donuts, does that make it more easily understandable by your target audience? Sure, but it's ultimately pointless and it's better to "teach" about that subject in a faithful way.
Characters like Arthur, Oda and Van Gogh has the benefits of being enough of household name that fans know Fate isn't trying to depict an accurate image, but when you come to Astolfo, Kama, Arjuna or Dobrynya, Fate may very well be the only time millions of fans will encounter these names, so when they intentionally butcher them, it's giving them the wrong image. Especially since it's a gacha game, even if the character has "wealth of knowledge" in their flavor texts, I will still say that it is by design to have a paywall closing these texts from being available to most players, and therefore first impressions becomes extra important.
Not that optional flavor text is a good method of learning to begin with. Notice how many people say they would never understand the plot of Dark Souls of there wasn't a Youtube video to explain everything for them? Or how many people do you think actually read the Pokedex?
My arguments was never limited to genderswaps and sexualizations, I could easily apply it to other characters like Astolfo, Edison, Babbage, Charlemagne and Arjuna Alter. Why didn't I raise those examples? One because Fate is most famous for its genderswaps, two because it's just going to become whatabouttism where "why are you okay with SMT but not okay with FGO", and third because I saw that even with the one argument alone, most people already aren't listening.
It's a frustrating dilemma of internet debates. You give too few examples, people say you're making arguments in bad faith, you give too many examples, they tl;dr you. cd young for example, just jumped on me and go "don't listen to this guy" no matter what I say, treating me like a plague even though again I did shut up for 2 years. Either way since they already stopped listening it's pointless to continue talking any further so I did left you guys alone. But hey, a week later someone's still coming to say I need to be banned. So yeah, it's not really making a case that "your side" is making arguments in good faith either.
Hell, in my very first post I compared FGO to Raya and the Last Dragon, a Disney film that attempted to score the cultural brownie points by doing half-assed mishmashs and attempting to pass it off as genuine representation. Raya rightfully got criticized over this, it doesn't matter that of course, you can actually still learn about SE Asia culture if you yourself go dive for all its inspirations, but the fact that Raya ended up BS-ing half of its stuffs and pretending that it's true is still an issue. It's like 4Kids trying to "censor" rice balls into donuts, does that make it more easily understandable by your target audience? Sure, but it's ultimately pointless and it's better to "teach" about that subject in a faithful way.
Characters like Arthur, Oda and Van Gogh has the benefits of being enough of household name that fans know Fate isn't trying to depict an accurate image, but when you come to Astolfo, Kama, Arjuna or Dobrynya, Fate may very well be the only time millions of fans will encounter these names, so when they intentionally butcher them, it's giving them the wrong image. Especially since it's a gacha game, even if the character has "wealth of knowledge" in their flavor texts, I will still say that it is by design to have a paywall closing these texts from being available to most players, and therefore first impressions becomes extra important.
Not that optional flavor text is a good method of learning to begin with. Notice how many people say they would never understand the plot of Dark Souls of there wasn't a Youtube video to explain everything for them? Or how many people do you think actually read the Pokedex?
Damn, ngl your entire argument was far superior to the other guys, I personally don't care about the actual argument, but I admire your actual intellectual capability, something that the other parties are lacking.
azurelorochi said: Characters like Arthur, Oda and Van Gogh has the benefits of being enough of household name that fans know Fate isn't trying to depict an accurate image, but when you come to Astolfo, Kama, Arjuna or Dobrynya, Fate may very well be the only time millions of fans will encounter these names, so when they intentionally butcher them, it's giving them the wrong image. Especially since it's a gacha game, even if the character has "wealth of knowledge" in their flavor texts, I will still say that it is by design to have a paywall closing these texts from being available to most players, and therefore first impressions becomes extra important.
Not that optional flavor text is a good method of learning to begin with. Notice how many people say they would never understand the plot of Dark Souls of there wasn't a Youtube video to explain everything for them? Or how many people do you think actually read the Pokedex?
OH NO. how dare they make characters dynamic or interesting, and make them fit into the narrative of the game, instead of sticking directly to the lore of those characters history/mythology. You seem toforget the characters aren't fucking static, and it's extra fucking rich hearing you say they butcher these characters HEN THEY FUCKING DON'T.
MaximunChromastone said:
Damn, ngl your entire argument was far superior to the other guys, I personally don't care about the actual argument, but I admire your actual intellectual capability, something that the other parties are lacking.
if you want to suck his dick go behind the dumpsters, don't do it in public.
OH NO. how dare they make characters dynamic or interesting, and make them fit into the narrative of the game, instead of sticking directly to the lore of those characters history/mythology. You seem toforget the characters aren't fucking static, and it's extra fucking rich hearing you say they butcher these characters HEN THEY FUCKING DON'T.
Oh no you're back. Look, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore because I know you're just a hypocrite who doesn't actually believe in anything and the only thing you care is disagreeing with whatever I say because I'm being mean to your gacha game.
You claim nobody cares about accuracy on one post, then 10 minutes later you say Fate teaches very accurate stuffs. Make up your fucking mind. I already explained times and times how it's being butchered and for someone who claims to be sick of hearing me complaining you never fucking absorbed a single thing I said.
Which is exactly why I gave up talking to you. I'd get more done talking to a wall.The fact you treat Chromastone that way also just showed what you really believe in. You just hate me but you don't have a fucking actual argument to back it up beyond "wah, wah, stop being mean to my multimillion gacha franchise". Actually stick to a coherent opinion, or maybe you should be the one to shut up and learn to deal with it.
Let the guy have his opinion. Seriously. If he wants fate back to the good ole days, let him have that right. Let him be as mean as he wants because in the end, fate still has many fans now and some of y'all are fans of how it is now so go be fans of fate instead trying to appeal to a internet stranger.
OH NO. how dare they make characters dynamic or interesting, and make them fit into the narrative of the game, instead of sticking directly to the lore of those characters history/mythology. You seem toforget the characters aren't fucking static, and it's extra fucking rich hearing you say they butcher these characters HEN THEY FUCKING DON'T.
if you want to suck his dick go behind the dumpsters, don't do it in public.
Nah, I don't even really agreed with their opinions, but the fact that their arguments are better than all of yours is just funny to me. Weren't you also punished for being overly aggressive? It appears that you are unable to learn.
I sure don't wanna get swept up in this hell of an argument. Just want to point out that... I've never heaed of Sei Shounagon ever before in my life. Disclaimer: the meme-references of her or whatever... I don't care about that; that's something the developers thought they needed to add - I would've been fine without it. But anyways it was FGOs representation of her that got me curious and which made me research as much of her as I could possible find. And ever since I love her both ingame and in real life. She's an awesome person!
The same goes for Dobrynya Nikitich. It was love on first sight! The moment they revealed her I was like: that's it - she's the one! And the same day I started looking who Dobrynya was in real life lore. Suffice to say, I still care way more about the ingame version, who is actually... well, if you know you know. But still. If not for Fate, that's some piece of lore I would never in my life have researched at all.
Same goes for others like... Medea, Boudica, Circe, the Hassan-i Sabbah, Chiyome, Sanzang, Abigail, Yang Guifei, Blackbeard, Qin Shi Huang, Amakusa Shirou, Jeanne d'Arc, the Athurian Legend, the mesopotamians, ... The list goes on and on. I've done so much research and learned so much ever since I got into Fate/, because when I see a Servant I like, I just want to know their origin - not just what the game tells me about them. Because anyone who's playing the game should be aware that they are twisting some stories as they please. After all, they are in no way obligated to stick to the real life lore at all. If anything, it makes it more interesting, the see how they stretched some interpretations of real history. And if it makes the ingame characters more interesting - then all the better.