>no man left behind Pretty ironic given how a number of reports from Ukraine seem to indicate that fair amount of Russians (both alive and dead) got left behind.
>no man left behind Pretty ironic given how a number of reports from Ukraine seem to indicate that fair amount of Russians (both alive and dead) got left behind.
South Osetia (1991): Can we join Russian Federation? Russian government: Lol, no way. DPR and LPR (2014): Russia, help us end this war! Let us join you too! Russian government: We don't think it's time now. Maybe in 8 years of frozen conflict... or not... Media (2000): What happened to submarine K-141 Koursk? Vladimir Putin: It sank. People of Russia: Can we have a free and fair elections, a real federalisation, a harmonic foreign policy, no political prisoners and an economy without oligarchs? Russian government: Deport these foreign agents and detain those extremists immediately. Oligarchs: We're not crooks. We're civilized capitalists bullied by western plutocrats. Russian government: How awful of you, Western countries! We're not leaving any man behind!
South Osetia (1991): Can we join Russian Federation? Russian government: Lol, no way. DPR and LPR (2014): Russia, help us end this war! Let us join you too! Russian government: We don't think it's time now. Maybe in 8 years of frozen conflict... or not... Media (2000): What happened to submarine K-141 Koursk? Vladimir Putin: It sank. People of Russia: Can we have a free and fair elections, a real federalisation, a harmonic foreign policy, no political prisoners and an economy without oligarchs? Russian government: Deport these foreign agents and detain those extremists immediately. Oligarchs: We're not crooks. We're civilized capitalists bullied by western plutocrats. Russian government: How awful of you, Western countries! We're not leaving any man behind!
Funny point of view)) Name at least one modern large country that acts differently? European?Ridiculous! Asian? Even funnier! USA? Maximum funny! A logical question arises. Why should Russia behave differently?
Funny point of view)) Name at least one modern large country that acts differently? European?Ridiculous! Asian? Even funnier! USA? Maximum funny! A logical question arises. Why should Russia behave differently?
I guess Putin's momma never told him "Two wrongs don't make a right".
Name at least one modern large country that acts differently?
Ignoratio elenchi. Also called an irrelevant conclusion. Let me remember, oh, yes, it sounds like "NATO bombed Yugoslavia back in 1999, so we can bomb Ukraine now!".
No. Just no. I am nor a hypocrite, nor a patriot. But we're talking about Russia, not about USA and Puerto-Rico, not about Ukraine and obstructions in their intentions to join NATO, not about freedom in Turkey, etc.
There isn't really too much engagement with his posts beyond him being made fun of.
All I can say is that I am interested in seeing the cope when Russia retreats without replacing the leadership in Ukraine.
Pretty sure that we already know what the official Russian cope is: it was never about replacing Ukraine's government with a puppet regime loyal to Putin, we were always only planning to secure Donbas, the massive attack on Kyiv was just a feint, you stupid western nazis are just too stupid to understand Putin's 4smart8u 12D chess moves.
Pretty sure that we already know what the official Russian cope is: it was never about replacing Ukraine's government with a puppet regime loyal to Putin, we were always only planning to secure Donbas, the massive attack on Kyiv was just a feint, you stupid western nazis are just too stupid to understand Putin's 4smart8u 12D chess moves.
There we go, Russians using anime art to cope with the fact Ukraine is showing how incompetent their army is. But alas, we just don't understand Putin's 15D chess and it's actually a total Russian victory, isn't it
It is such a shame that this war has divided people that have been friendly with one another, because of misinformation. There are many conflicting, inaccurate and incomplete stories and narratives about what is going on, please research through all news you can find and you can see the truth behind it. This is an invasion, not a righteous war, even if it was to 'free' the people of Ukraine, that does not justify the strong-arm military push Putin is forcing with his army, as this is a Ukrainian matter not a Russian one.
I believe in the Russian people, that none of them truly want to see this war (no one wants to see bloodshed of innocent lives), it is simply a matter of national patriotism that is being used by their government, to mask the horrible situation and eventually we will see peace again. All I wish for is a peaceful outcome to this war, one where we can return to enjoying the company of the Russian people freely, without talks of military might and war to cloud our opinions.
Ignoratio elenchi. Also called an irrelevant conclusion. Let me remember, oh, yes, it sounds like "NATO bombed Yugoslavia back in 1999, so we can bomb Ukraine now!".
No. Just no. I am nor a hypocrite, nor a patriot. But we're talking about Russia, not about USA and Puerto-Rico, not about Ukraine and obstructions in their intentions to join NATO, not about freedom in Turkey, etc.
It is very hypocritical to hold Russia to a different standard. Even if you go with "IT'S A DICTATORSHIP" it doesn't undermine the fact that we did a lot of terrible stuff which set the standard of it being acceptable to invade another country for "national security reasons."
It is very hypocritical to hold Russia to a different standard. Even if you go with "IT'S A DICTATORSHIP" it doesn't undermine the fact that we did a lot of terrible stuff which set the standard of it being acceptable to invade another country for "national security reasons."
If you're referring to Iraq, it should still be pointed out that the US never once denied they were going to invade them. Including going to the UN Security council to approve sending in military forces. I'm not going to say what the US did there was right (it wasn't), but from the get go Russia has never admitted to what they are doing from the beginning to even after they started carrying it out.
If you're referring to Iraq, it should still be pointed out that the US never once denied they were going to invade them. Including going to the UN Security council to approve sending in military forces. I'm not going to say what the US did there was right (it wasn't), but from the get go Russia has never admitted to what they are doing from the beginning to even after they started carrying it out.
I'm also pretty sure the UN thought the war (Iraq) was illegal; so breaking international law seems to hold no real weight. Russia/Putin has made several demands of Ukraine along with stated goals. However the point is that it's actually individual nations who set the standards and we already messed up if international law was supposed to be important.
It is very hypocritical to hold Russia to a different standard. Even if you go with "IT'S A DICTATORSHIP" it doesn't undermine the fact that we did a lot of terrible stuff which set the standard of it being acceptable to invade another country for "national security reasons."
It's not about a different standard. It's about staying on topic. I posted a comment about Russia (my home country, by the way), so why the hell do I need to sway my attention on DPRK, China or Hungary? Maybe USA bombing Ukraine now? Or maybe Switzerland poisoned and then arrested their main opposition leader recently? No, they don't. Countries are not all the same, they're different subjects, and if we're talking about one subject that doesn't mean all subjects doing the exact same thing.
It's not about a different standard. It's about staying on topic. I posted a comment about Russia (my home country, by the way), so why the hell do I need to sway my attention on DPRK, China or Hungary? Maybe USA bombing Ukraine now? Or maybe Switzerland poisoned and then arrested their main opposition leader recently? No, they don't. Countries are not all the same, they're different subjects, and if we're talking about one subject that doesn't mean all subjects doing the exact same thing.
The moral grandstanding of westerners especially Americans (also an American) is pretty ridiculous. They're acting like our shit doesn't stink and vilifying Russia/Russians when our government has done awful things as well.
I'm also pretty sure the UN thought the war (Iraq) was illegal; so breaking international law seems to hold no real weight. Russia/Putin has made several demands of Ukraine along with stated goals. However the point is that it's actually individual nations who set the standards and we already messed up if international law was supposed to be important.
Pretty sure Russia made their demands to NATO, not Ukraine and only made demands to Ukraine after the invasion. Notably they demanded NATO abandon all military activates in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus and Central Asia. Bar any former Soviet States from entering NATO in the future. They also wanted a withdraw of all NATO troops from countries that joined since 1997, and NATO forces would only be allowed in those countries with Russia's consent. It's one thing to make demands of the country you're threatening, it's another thing to make demands to a third party with the threat that you'll attack someone else. The ones being attacked aren't even offered a chance to negotiate.
Pretty sure Russia made their demands to NATO, not Ukraine and only made demands to Ukraine after the invasion. Notably they demanded NATO abandon all military activates in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus and Central Asia. Bar any former Soviet States from entering NATO in the future. They also wanted a withdraw of all NATO troops from countries that joined since 1997, and NATO forces would only be allowed in those countries with Russia's consent. It's one thing to make demands of the country you're threatening, it's another thing to make demands to a third party with the threat that you'll attack someone else. The ones being attacked aren't even offered a chance to negotiate.
Does the minor technicality of them not asking really matter that much or making their demands? I'm assuming that the UN didn't give the US the green light to send in the troops, so what's the point of bringing this up when we end up in the exact same place? Also the Russians clearly see Ukraine as a NATO puppet (or at least that's the narrative), so I don't see why it'd be unreasonable in their eyes to make their demands to them.
The moral grandstanding of westerners especially Americans (also an American) is pretty ridiculous. They're acting like our shit doesn't stink and vilifying Russia/Russians when our government has done awful things as well.
Key words there: "has done", while Russia "is doing". I don't give a shit what America did in the past, awful or not, because right now Russia is doing awful shit. We could sit here all day listing out every awful thing every country has ever done, but it's not at all relevant to current events.
Stop commandeering discussions about Russia with irrelevant topics just to assume a moral highground. This isn't twitter.
Key words there: "has done", while Russia "is doing". I don't give a shit what America did in the past, awful or not, because right now Russia is doing awful shit.
Stop commandeering discussions about Russia with irrelevant topics just to assume a moral highground. This isn't twitter.
Maybe when I stop seeing shit like "sunflower fertilizer" when a pretty sizable portion of the Russian army is made of conscripts. It's disgusting that even has upvotes, but that's okay because Russia/Russians bad.
LustyForBusty said: Maybe when I stop seeing shit like "sunflower fertilizer" when a pretty sizable portion of the Russian army is made of conscripts. It's disgusting that even has upvotes, but that's okay because Russia/Russians bad.
You see, that's on the four people who involved themselves in that comment (poster and three upvoters), not any of those other parties whose topics you've brought up. You should have complained about that from the start if that's what bothered you because this could have been a serious discussion for the reasons and arguments you just listed before you derailed it with unrelated matters. Focus on the specific message of own point - "the unfair depiction of people being forced to do immoral things by a political regime" - and, if that's not your topic, you shouldn't even bring it up.
I'm downvoting myself because even I don't know whether I'm contributing to this topic or not anymore.
You see, that's on the four people who involved themselves in that comment (poster and three upvoters), not any of those other parties whose topics you've brought up. You should have complained about that from the start if that's what bothered you because this could have been a serious discussion for the reasons and arguments you just listed before you derailed it with unrelated matters. Focus on the specific message of own point - "the unfair depiction of people being forced to do immoral things by a political regime" - and, if that's not your topic, you shouldn't even bring it up.
I'm downvoting myself because even I don't know whether I'm contributing to this topic or not anymore.
I'm just trying to point out the double standards and hypocrisy of all of this. I doubt if I replied to the fertilizer comment it would have gotten any better reception. Also don't downvote yourself I probably should have went down path anyway.
I'm just trying to point out the double standards and hypocrisy of all of this. I doubt if I replied to the fertilizer comment it would have gotten any better reception. Also don't downvote yourself I probably should have went down path anyway.
A double standard is if I were to justify the US invasion of Iraq. I'm not. I'm saying the US invasion of Iraq was immoral. I am also saying the Russian invasion of Ukraine is also immoral.
What makes comparisons between Iraq and Ukraine different isn't just who did it, or the contexts leading to the invasions, but the actions of the invading force. Iraq wasn't clean in its execution. However what makes the invasion of Ukraine the comment of discussion now is that it is 2022 and the invasion is ongoing.
I would argue that it is a far better case for hypocrisy to look at US treatment of the Israeli-Palestine issue. The matter of private entities being allowed to refuse services to a region owing to geopolitical policy was controversial when they refuse services to a US ally, but required when servicing a geopolitcal rival. Even though I see a hypocrisy in our nation's policy, I would not taper my support of sanctioning and withdrawing from Russia as a result of the invasion.
I don't think its fair, at all, to refer to Russian soldiers as "sunflower fertilizer" or to make death threats against heads of state or armed servicemen. But like Bill Mauldin said, regarding the treatment of Allies and Axis soldiers of each other, that when wars go on, insults and rhetoric tends to go towards crueler, dehumanizing terms rather than political ones.
Anyways, the issues with the invasion go beyond the morality of the invasion itself. The US invasion of Iraq, despite the attempted to control messaging by the government and military, was a public affair that received substantial and organized criticism. and you didn't see bold faced denials of basic facts, and when this was attempted, there was scrutiny placed on it.
Meanwhile, people are arrested en-masse in Russia for anti-war demonstrations, their diplomatic arm is denying every single fact that exists, they have completely shut down internal discussion of the affair. That Russia is consistently doing shit like backtracking on cease-fires and constantly changing the stated goal and scale of their operations means that whatever motivation they had for their invasion wasn't established on anything specific.
It ultimately doesn't matter what people say about the invasion, however, considering its going terribly for Russia and they stand to lose access to Crimea and Donbas entirely. The whole thing about NATO being a threat since NATO hasn't reached its defense spending obligations in decades and its no secret even powers like Germany let their military entirely atrophy. Now Russia invaded a non-NATO partner so every body regional to them is not going to believe Russia when they say they are safe if they don't join NATO so good work there Putin.
It's funny they talk about how what USA did doesn't matter now as if it happened more than 50 years ago. It was on 2003 and it lasted at less 8 years. And honestly that worries me, because that's recent history precedent that tells this war won't end in a few months.
How would USA had reacted if everyone put restrictions for what they did I wonder? If this works every nation should do the same to them next time, something that ought to happen sooner because they love to sell weapons and stir up conflicts for money.
It's funny they talk about how what USA did doesn't matter now as if it happened more than 50 years ago. It was on 2003 and it lasted at less 8 years. And honestly that worries me, because that's recent history precedent that tells this war won't end in a few months.
How would USA had reacted if everyone put restrictions for what they did I wonder? If this works every nation should do the same to them next time, something that ought to happen sooner because they love to sell weapons and stir up conflicts for money.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? The USA did a bad thing in Iraq. That in no way shape of form changes the fact that right now Russia is doing horrible things in Ukraine. If the USA makes a necked act of plain aggression and conquest in the future then by all means yes let the world condemn it sanction it and even funnel weapons to it's target. I say this as an American.
So no what the USA did or will do really doesn't have much to do with this conversation. People are rightfully upset mass executions, the seemingly systematic rapes being committed, and the almost certainly intentional targeting medical facilitates, relief convoys and civilian targets.
I agree with this. I just want to point out if what USA has done before doesn't matter, neither it matters whatever Russia has done before this invasion. If you do for this conversation that's a double standard. I won't mention anything about "accidental" TV station attacks, shots to hotels filled with journalists or trained children killed in action either.
Honestly trying to defend anyone is like picking the minimal of two evils... and for that I prefer to stay neutral.
I'm just trying to point out the double standards and hypocrisy of all of this. I doubt if I replied to the fertilizer comment it would have gotten any better reception. Also don't downvote yourself I probably should have went down path anyway.
rom_collector said:
It's funny they talk about how what USA did doesn't matter now as if it happened more than 50 years ago. It was on 2003 and it lasted at less 8 years. And honestly that worries me, because that's recent history precedent that tells this war won't end in a few months.
How would USA had reacted if everyone put restrictions for what they did I wonder? If this works every nation should do the same to them next time, something that ought to happen sooner because they love to sell weapons and stir up conflicts for money.
Why exactly is it that pictures of Ukrainians in the context of Russia invading Ukraine gets nothing but defenses for Russia involving the US when the US has extremely little to do with any of it? No matter what your Russian propagandist "news sources" say, the US does not have the ability to spark revolutions wherever it wants (or Putin would have already gotten the Gadaffi treatment), and it was entirely the Ukrainian people that took their own fate into their hands and out of Putin's. The US is giving honestly pitiful support for Ukraine after the fact, but so is all of Europe, so why are you so focused upon how this is a big battle between the US and Russia if not for the fact that Putin desperately wants to make this Cold War 2 to try to make it seem less like Putin being a bully trying to coerce a smaller nation into compliance by pretending it's a battle against an "enemy" he's already tried to condition Russians into hating?
No matter what your Russian propagandist "news sources" say, the US does not have the ability to spark revolutions wherever it wants (or Putin would have already gotten the Gadaffi treatment), and it was entirely the Ukrainian people that took their own fate into their hands and out of Putin's.
What? You didn't know that the US uses satellites equipped with special lasers that can cause people to go into a revolution? They're the same satellites the libs use to start forest fires in California to blame on climate change instead of them not properly raking their forests.
I agree with this. I just want to point out if what USA has done before doesn't matter, neither it matters whatever Russia has done before this invasion. If you do for this conversation that's a double standard. I won't mention anything about "accidental" TV station attacks, shots to hotels filled with journalists or trained children killed in action either.
Honestly trying to defend anyone is like picking the minimal of two evils... and for that I prefer to stay neutral.
No one is saying what the US, or any country for that matter, did in the past doesn't matter. We're saying that those things don't matter right now, they don't matter for this discussion. There are things happening right now that matter, but you absolutely refuse to allow people to talk about current events without inserting irrelevant past shit into the discussion to act surperior to everyone else.
All right I won't say anymore, I've talked enough. My whole argument after all is the "irrelevant past shit" demonstrates the US (or any other nation) can't fix what has already been done because obviously history shows they can't fix themselves. Right now your nationalism will take you to a biased Xenophobia and further involvement into this mess, previous history has shown that. We are running in cycles and another World War is inminent, I just hope it delays long enough for my descendants to not be involved.
Have it your way, hate every Russian in sight just for being born in the wrong country. Pretend I hate every American, not just the ones that go out there killing out their frontiers. It's your ass that will be sent to war, not mine.
EDIT: Says the guy that sets a timer to get around the limit post to spam Google searches. Do not project on me, I have better things to do than reading Danbooru all day.
All right I won't say anymore, I've talked enough. My whole argument after all is the "irrelevant past shit" demonstrates the US (or any other nation) can't fix what has already been done because obviously history shows they can't fix themselves. Right now your nationalism will take you to a biased Xenophobia and further involvement into this mess, previous history has shown that. We are running in cycles and another World War is inminent, I just hope it delays long enough for my descendants to not be involved.
Have it your way, hate every Russian in sight just for being born in the wrong country. Pretend I hate every American, not just the ones that go out there killing out their frontiers. It's your ass that will be sent to war, not mine.
This is the part that pisses me off about you two. Literally. Fucking. No one. Here. Is saying. "All Russians are evil and should die and I hope America nukes the entire country into dust." No one is fucking saying these things, not a single participant in these discussion has claimed any sort of desire for Russian civilians to suffer the same fate many Ukrainian civilians have. No one has claimed America isn't at fault for past actions. No one fucking brought any of this shit into the conversation, until you did. You're the one that won't fucking shut up about America's misdeeds, and Americans being sent to a war we aren't even part of. None of us have asked for the American intervention you're convinced we want.
We say: "What Russia is doing is fucking awful. I feel so bad for the Ukrainians." You hear: "I hope they bring back the draft and send me personally to Russia so I can shoot a commie toddler with one hand while torching a commie orphanage with the other while I rape his commie mother."
How about you and LustyForBusty quit putting words in people's mouths and fuck off? We just want to talk about what's actually happening right now without you asshats trying to derail every conversation that doesn't revolve around shitting on America. America sucks, we all know it, shut up about it.
Если не бросаете, заберите ту кучу своих двухсотых из рефрежираторов, ещё есть огромная куча "пропавших без вести", которые на деле убитые Не бросаете, хули
Are you from the Donbass? No? Shut up then, you cannot understand a war if you do not experience it. I know about the war, but I do not understand it. I write from the safety of my home. Does it anger me? Of course, I hate war. Do I blame or hate Russia? No. Do you hate NATO because of Yugoslavia? The USA because of Iraq? How would it feel for Iraqis, Afghans and Libyans to celebrate each American dead? Or do you enjoy people celebrating the death of the queen? Do you celebrate with the Chinese the death of Shinzo Abe? Have you heard "It has to be this way"? It is a popular song from Metal Gear: Revengeance. A fight for ideals, this war is that. Russian army is Armstrong, Ukraine army is Raiden. Here, who knows who wins? No one does, it is a mystery. But Russia has ideals, their army fights for those ideals. Ukraine too, and so does their army fight for them. But in the end, both were forced into this. No matter the outcome, Ukraine's army realizes that their rival has good ideals, and will then continue with those ideals. That is happening, that is why so many surrender, that is why the DPR and LPR have more experienced volunteers the longer this goes on. Not every Ukrainian is a Nazi, not every Ukrainian knows they are under Nazis. But now they see, the horrors of war in first hand experience. How it feels to be shelled, hunted down, to never be at ease. That is what the Donbass went through, not for 6 months, for 8 YEARS. They begged for Ukraine to stop, for Russia to help. They were ignored. Now, they finally get revenge. It might happen with Palestine. Was it not the Western values freedom and independence? Democracy? Why then are they not happy? They are fighting for freedom and independence, just like Kosovo. They held referendums, if Hong Kong held a referendum and the votes were for independence from China, you would support it. Why not this one? Because of Russian influence? I could say the same of Kosovo's separatists, or if Hong Kong had a referendum that it was forced by "Little Green Men". See how easy it is? Denying the other's views is not a victory in an argument.