Two immortals with one who can theoretically them with his eyes.

What an...oddly fitting trio

nothingsjim said:
Two immortals with one who can theoretically them with his eyes.

What an...oddly fitting trio

I think that's the point, Shiki should be the only one actually able to kill them, and to an immortal the death is something precious since they can't have it.

Except that the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception wouldn't work on them. They have no concept of death for the eyes to perceive.

Magus said:
Except that the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception wouldn't work on them. They have no concept of death for the eyes to perceive.

I dunno, there IS always a flaw within everything, remember that he saw arcuied's lines under the full moon, while that didn't killed her, it dealt a considerable amount of damage (near the end of ciel route) and In the same route, he saw nature's lines. So theoretically he should be able to see a line or even a little point in them.

In Type-Moon, they usually cheat dead with one way or another so death is still there, but they just do nice job on keeping it away. The better they do the loophole, the harder it is to perceive the 'death'.

Killing Arc should be possible even without those eyes; for example, that thing they use to dispose the third rock from sun in Hitchiker's Guide story. :D

But with the crazy specs of Touhou characters, lets assume that ZUN doesn't really care. These two had immortality, they can't die, and that's all, not that it matters much in the danmaku fight.

By the way, anyone still have the link to that post where Mokou is debating about this whole Hourai elixir vs Mystic eyes thing ?

silver-alex said:
I dunno, there IS always a flaw within everything

ORT called, requesting that Shiki "suck it."

It depends on the kind of immortality Mokou and Kaguya have. If they have regenerative immortality, such as being able to die and then come back to life, then they can indeed be "eliminated" by the MEoDP. Why? Because the MEoDP can eliminate anything that has the "concept" of death, or rather, the concept of a "nothing." If Kaguya/Mokou lose consciousness and "die" before coming back to life, they're toast against the MEoDP. Remember Ciel's immortality; she can regenerate from pretty much anything, yet if her body is damaged enough, she "dies" and then comes back to life and regenerates later. Her case was stated to be able to be "eliminated" by the MEoDP.

If they do not ever lose consciousness and at no point when they are "defeated" do they lose conscious existence, then they will be untouched by the MEoDP, since they do not have an earthly concept of "nothing."

Also, ORT is from another planet, so it can't be killed because it doesn't have a Gaian/Earthly concept of death.

Farran said:
Also, ORT is from another planet, so it can't be killed because it doesn't have a Gaian/Earthly concept of death.

Brings a question, will something like Death Star shooting Mercury to pieces kill that thing on Earth ?

Nanayatsu said:
I think that's the point, Shiki should be the only one actually able to kill them, and to an immortal the death is something precious since they can't have it.

Immortality is only speculated by some authors to be undesirable. In some other methodologies, immortality is a entirely desirable trait associated with ascension.

Farran said:
It depends on the kind of immortality Mokou and Kaguya have. If they have regenerative immortality, such as being able to die and then come back to life, then they can indeed be "eliminated" by the MEoDP. Why? Because the MEoDP can eliminate anything that has the "concept" of death, or rather, the concept of a "nothing." If Kaguya/Mokou lose consciousness and "die" before coming back to life, they're toast against the MEoDP. Remember Ciel's immortality; she can regenerate from pretty much anything, yet if her body is damaged enough, she "dies" and then comes back to life and regenerates later. Her case was stated to be able to be "eliminated" by the MEoDP.

If they do not ever lose consciousness and at no point when they are "defeated" do they lose conscious existence, then they will be untouched by the MEoDP, since they do not have an earthly concept of "nothing."

There's no indication about whether they lose consciousness when they receive what would otherwise have been a fatal wound. It is, however, specifically described as having the very concept of death removed from their being.

Farran said:
Also, ORT is from another planet, so it can't be killed because it doesn't have a Gaian/Earthly concept of death.

I guess that means Kaguya's immune regardless, seeing as she's from the Moon.

Magus said:
I guess that means Kaguya's immune regardless, seeing as she's from the Moon.

Well, since Mokou have the same, non-earthly source of immortality like Kaguya, maybe she's immune as well?

SHUN0 said:
Well, since Mokou have the same, non-earthly source of immortality like Kaguya, maybe she's immune as well?

I meant that Kaguya's concept of death prior to the elixir would've been Lunarian, not Earthly, so she'd have fallen under the same loophole that ORT does.

didn't the Elixir Removed the concept of Death from them? Like, Shiki wouldn't be able to find anything on them

As I understand, Yuyuko (who can kill anyone) can't kill Kaguya or Mokou, and they also can't physically travel to Hakugyokurou or any other afterlife realm because being there is the same as being dead.

They can still experience lethal wounds, so Shiki could probably destroy their bodies, but they would physically recover in short order.

unicode said:
Immortality is only speculated by some authors to be undesirable. In some other methodologies, immortality is a entirely desirable trait associated with ascension.

As long as they have reason to continue living, or evolve to keep having a reason (not die in boredom). Hermits who live long tried to reach understanding of things. Evil masterminds could still enjoy planning on destroying the world, flipping side now and then.

These days we're often trapped in the ideas yet to be denied by the next great minds.
But IMO, just like promise of eternal life in heaven give optimism to peoples who would else had no hope, story of immortals living in sorrow might be comparable to telling the poor how they are actually happy and the rich peoples they always envied is not happy. Giving them positive view of life and reduce the risk of friction from discontent.
Or simply just telling them to stop dreaming and start working. :P

Magus said:
There's no indication about whether they lose consciousness when they receive what would otherwise have been a fatal wound. It is, however, specifically described as having the very concept of death removed from their being.

I've always wondered what exactly happens to Mokou/Kaguya when they suffer a "fatal" wound. Various artists depict it in different ways, so I'm not always sure what's right. Is there any indication of what happens in any of the source material?

Magus said:
I guess that means Kaguya's immune regardless, seeing as she's from the Moon.

That... is actually a good point. Kudos.

One other option is that a user of the MEoDP (Shiki, Ryougi) could hypothetically "eliminate" the elixir inside Mokou/Kaguya, rendering them mortal again. I say this because of the scenario in Tsukihime where Shiki kills a crazy Arcuied by "killing" her connection to Gaia, a vague concept in of itself, rendering her vulnerable to the MEoDP. Though Shiki'd most likely kill himself trying to get rid of the elixir; hell, he became blind from trying to get rid of poison from Kohaku when she tried to kill herself. Ryougi may have an easier time since her eyes don't have a drawback like Shiki's, but like I said, it's all hypothetical. And hell, even Ryougi couldn't see any way to kill Archetype Earth AKA Crimson Moon Arcuied.

Farran said:
One other option is that a user of the MEoDP (Shiki, Ryougi) could hypothetically "eliminate" the elixir inside Mokou/Kaguya, rendering them mortal again.

Which brings us to the question, does the "Earthly concept of death" limitation also apply to objects[/b} that aren't from Earth? The Hourai Elixir is just as Lunarian as Kaguya herself, is it not?Also, it's not the presence of the elixir that renders Kaguya and Mokou immortal. It's simply having taken it in the first place.

Magus said:
Which brings us to the question, does the "Earthly concept of death" limitation also apply to objects[/b} that aren't from Earth? The Hourai Elixir is just as Lunarian as Kaguya herself, is it not?Also, it's not the presence of the elixir that renders Kaguya and Mokou immortal. It's simply having taken it in the first place.

The act of taking the elixir may have been enough to render the duo immortal, but it also (possibly) means that there is some "connection" from the elixir to the bodies of Mokou/Kaguya that makes them immortal. If there is such a connection, then it may be able to be eliminated. If Ryougi could "kill" her own future and Shiki could kill a bond with the planet itself in canon, then it's possible. If there's no such connection... that's some pretty hax drink. Which brings the question of how the hell it works... but then I'd probably get cries of "ZUN did it." This is Gensoukyou, after all.

As for being able to "kill" non-earthly objects, it has been stated that the MEoDP has a much easier time eliminating "objects" than "living things," such that Shiki can easily destroy doors and buildings with little strain. The reason why Shiki blinded himself getting rid of poison in Kohaku was because how hard it was to "see" the poison permeating the body. Not sure if it makes killing the elixir any easier, but it sure would be much easier than trying to understand a non-earthly concept of death for a living being from another planet.

Those two step killing (killing the immortality, then kill the person) pretty much covered the loopholes. Even if Kaguya's immortality is not because of the elixir, it can still open the "lock" one after another until all the chains of immortality are untangled.

So that would leave...
- Something so big, it's practically impossible to kill (for example, planets. But Gaia died in the future, so it's canon that planet can die).
- Something that would be re-created from another source (imagine the data mirroring in RAID system) in which it's practically impossible to destroy every copy of it (such as embodiment of legends). They can be forgotten and go to Gensoukyou, but is that the same as death the eye perceived ?

BTW, back to the picture. At least I think Shiki would be comfortable without his glasses around these two because he had to actually look for their death to see it. :)
Usually around mortals he can see the lines whether he likes it or not.

Mokou is seriously creeping me out.

silver-alex said:
I dunno, there IS always a flaw within everything, remember that he saw arcuied's lines under the full moon, while that didn't killed her, it dealt a considerable amount of damage (near the end of ciel route) and In the same route, he saw nature's lines. So theoretically he should be able to see a line or even a little point in them.

You're ignoring (or forgetting) the fact that the only reason why Shiki was able to see a line on Arcueid on the night was because she was still very weakened after being killed by Shiki. Arcueid herself stated that one time at the hotel, that on the night Shiki shouldn't be able to see her lines since she has no times/concept of death (if she were on normal condition, that is). Witht the moon out, and Arcueid in good condition, she does not have any death, not because Shiki can't see it, or because his eyes aren't strong enough, she just does not have any (as stated by her in Tsukihime and seen in MBAA).

Seika said:
Killing Arc should be possible even without those eyes; for example, that thing they use to dispose the third rock from sun in Hitchiker's Guide story. :D

Actually, Ciel stated that the only way to kill Arcueid is by using a Conceptual Weapon with the power to kill the world. She won't die as long as she is connected to the world, and on normal condition she won't have any lines as long as you don't conceptually kill the world.

Also it's not just a matter of being immortal. It really depends on the kind of immortality. Ciel was immortal (she won't die of old age, and she revives after being killed), yet the Eyes of Death made short work of her. But Ciel just comes back to life after being killed. Arcueid on the other hand, does not have any death, she is an eternal being in Akasha's regard.

The idea is... I assume Nasu is content on limiting "the world" to Earth/Gaia in his stories. The other TYPEs came from another "world" defining different kind of life or soul. He doesn't seem interested in space faring intelligent race either.
So, if the Akasha is indeed spirit of the Earth (not some Almighty God of the greater Universe), then scientific weapons with capability enough to obliterate celestial objects might be able to kill the world, and Arc in extension. The humans and other creatures caught in it counts as collateral damage.
IIRC, the other planet also die when their Type is forcefully killed, so before finding a way to live outside the planet, killing Arc wont a good idea either. :q

Of course, the idea of such weapons for them might not be so different from us... a work of fiction for time being.

But yeah, I can imagine him saying that I'm taking it too far out of context.

Not to burst your bubble,but if its the Nanaya Shiki from Melty Blood,he doesnt have the Mystic Eyes of Death perception.
This is probably the work of his Mystic Gland of Bitch Attraction.

I think, eventually, if their physical forms were battered out of all proportion and they were killed some fifty seven bajillion times, then Shiki might be able to see some sort of line on them. Regardless, I doubt he'd be able to kill them at all.

In any case, some versions of Nanaya do in fact have the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception.

Really, as far as how I'm aware, the Hourai Elixir just outright removes the concept of death. Entirely. There's no flaw to it. The Hourai Elixir is for all intents perfect and permanent. According to the wiki, it 'makes one an existence completely independent of even the concept of reality, thus making one not subject to the bounds of life, death, or even manipulation, although the pain of injuries can still be felt. This medicine indeed makes one truly invincible, and forced to live out their existence forever.' Therefore, Shiki (all three of them) might very well just suffer immediate seizures if they try to perceive them.

Hourai Elixir > Mystic Eyes of Death Perception

The Nasuverse bypasses "god-level" defenses by hinting at hypothetical "god-level" weapons (but never actually introducing them, let alone using them) and plot devices (Ciel being weakened by Shiki when they first met).

If we start pulling crap like that, you might as well pull the Yukari card and say she manipulates the power boundary of your "god-level" weapons/defenses and insta-pwns everything.

While Zun, to quote other comment, gave out hax abilities like party favour. Not like the ability itself plays anything in the original gameplay though, after all, it's danmaku.

Talking about Hourai Elixir's "removing death from the person drinking it", anyone remember story from Journey to the West ?
In the story, the Monkey King is not happy to hear that he would die eventually so he went to hell and destroyed every records that declare when his peoples would die, in attempt to remove death from their fate.

Anyway, closest thing to the mystic eyes in Gensoukyou might be the Kyuu, like the time Flan described how she crushed a meteor.
post #828606

There is also the point of paradoxes.

Kaguya and Moku are Immortal under Gaia AND Type-MOON's rules. They cannot be killed, that is an established fact. If one of them dies, they are brought back to life near instantly because Gaia is undoing the paradox of a person who cannot die dying.

Shiki's eyes are Eyes the see the end of life, if something has an end, he can theoretically cut it. Kaguya and Moku have no end. They are Immortal and cannot die. Their lines were erased the second they touched the Houri elixir with their lips.

Their Danmaku, he can cut. their clothes, he can cut, their bodes? he cannot cut. The power of the paradox that keeps those two alive is so powerful that anything done to them that would contradict it is instantly resolved.

Err... Ciel is a paradox, in a way. Gaia is just too stubborn to accept that she made a blunder when Ciel died and already sent Roa's soul to his next reincarnation, yet Ciel is still hanging around with that soul that's supposed to be reincarnated already. Because administratively (?) Ciel is dead, she can't die again, or at least Gaia decided she'll wait until the current reincarnation die before taking care of that one.

There's also a dead apostle that's eternal because he's supposed to do something important in the future, and thus if he died, it will create a paradox because he won't be able to do that important thing. Or... imagine how Jesus won't die other than being crucified because if He died before that the grand plans are all screwed up.
Yup, the same excuse that made the universe revive Excel in Excel Saga again and again ^^;;;

Also, CMIIW, those mystic eyes the Shikis have are like Gaia's deus ex machina to veto all eternity hacks.
Rule: Nothing is eternal.
Reality: Someone is eternal.
Solution: Mystic eyes ==> kill ==> target is dead == not eternal anymore ==> all's fine with the world

The stubborn lady is not taking no for answer doesn't she ?

Seika said:
Err... Ciel is a paradox, in a way. Gaia is just too stubborn to accept that she made a blunder when Ciel died and already sent Roa's soul to his next reincarnation, yet Ciel is still hanging around with that soul that's supposed to be reincarnated already. Because administratively (?) Ciel is dead, she can't die again, or at least Gaia decided she'll wait until the current reincarnation die before taking care of that one.

There's also a dead apostle that's eternal because he's supposed to do something important in the future, and thus if he died, it will create a paradox because he won't be able to do that important thing. Or... imagine how Jesus won't die other than being crucified because if He died before that the grand plans are all screwed up.
Yup, the same excuse that made the universe revive Excel in Excel Saga again and again ^^;;;

Also, CMIIW, those mystic eyes the Shikis have are like Gaia's deus ex machina to veto all eternity hacks.
Rule: Nothing is eternal.
Reality: Someone is eternal.
Solution: Mystic eyes ==> kill ==> target is dead == not eternal anymore ==> all's fine with the world

The stubborn lady is not taking no for answer doesn't she ?

The mystical eyes aren't related to Gaia, it's when a human's mind connects with the Akasha records. the source of all reality. They are eyes of death because they are eyes that can see the end of anything the user presieves to be killable. Being alien to Gaia have alien concepts of death and as such they cannot be understood by a user. Likewise, beings with powerful Prana can conceal their lines and dots, effectively forcing a sort of immortality.

Moku and Kaguya are being who are immortal. That is an unquestionable fact. They have been removed from the cycles of Death and Rebirth, so they are like Servents, they don't have lines or dots because, in their case, Death is an alien concept that doesn't relate to them. If they can be killed that would be the contradiction to them being immortal. Thus Gaia'd be forced to correct the contradiction.

Likewise, beings with powerful Prana can conceal their lines and dots, effectively forcing a sort of immortality.

You made this up. First, the only non-alien being, the only one, shown in the Nasuverse so far, that doesn't have any lines and dots is Arcueid during the night. Even someone like Nrvnqsr (who requires a weapon that can erase all his 666 lives in one hit to be killed) and Ciel who is also immortal are easily killed by the Eyes of Death.

The lines are stated to be the lines were the substance breaks easily, while dots are death itself. Arcueid on the night is stated to be a perfect existence, so she doesn't have lines nor dots. Kaguya and Moku won't have dots, but unless their body structures are 100% perfect, they would have lines.

They have been removed from the cycles of Death and Rebirth, so they are like Servents, they don't have lines or dots because, in their case, Death is an alien concept that doesn't relate to them.

Servants can be killed by the Eyes of Death, it's only a matter of Shiki being able to understand their death or not.

If they can be killed that would be the contradiction to them being immortal. Thus Gaia'd be forced to correct the contradiction.

No, the MEoDP completely ignores immortality, since Ciel was easily killed by them, and the MEoDP >>> Gaia. This is why Arc had to recreate her body from scratch, there is nothing Gaia can do. As you said, the eyes are connected to Akasha itself, Gaia pales in comparison. Also, Gaia doesn't have any control over alien beings, since they have different laws. Not that it matters, since Nanaya/Tohno won't be able to understand their death since they are aliens.

Sephiroth_Angel said:
You made this up. First, the only non-alien being, the only one, shown in the Nasuverse so far, that doesn't have any lines and dots is Arcueid during the night. Even someone like Nrvnqsr (who requires a weapon that can erase all his 666 lives in one hit to be killed) and Ciel who is also immortal are easily killed by the Eyes of Death.

No, Normally Arc's lines can't be seen by Shiki, he was able to 17 cut her at the beginning of Tsukihime because she was weakened during the day and she just recently hunted a apostle, so she was weakened. Her mana was low.

The lines are stated to be the lines were the substance breaks easily, while dots are death itself. Arcueid on the night is stated to be a perfect existence, so she doesn't have lines nor dots. Kaguya and Moku won't have dots, but unless their body structures are 100% perfect, they would have lines.

I'll leave that.

Servants can be killed by the Eyes of Death, it's only a matter of Shiki being able to understand their death or not.

Servants are already "Dead" in the Akasha records. Their existence is already used up, so they have no concepts of death. Shiki could understand the deaths of their prana constructed bodies, but the strain of him trying to understand them would kill him instantly.

No, the MEoDP completely ignores immortality, since Ciel was easily killed by them, and the MEoDP >>> Gaia. This is why Arc had to recreate her body from scratch, there is nothing Gaia can do. As you said, the eyes are connected to Akasha itself, Gaia pales in comparison. Also, Gaia doesn't have any control over alien beings, since they have different laws. Not that it matters, since Nanaya/Tohno won't be able to understand their death since they are aliens.

It can't ignore something that is in the records. Moku and Kaguya are immortals. that is more then likely in the records about them. But, this is comparing a setting with no True Immortality, and one with True Immortality.

Nice to see a discussion so interesting and civil going on! I'd love to join in (since it's partially about the Hourai Elixir) I know naught about the Type-moon stuff, so I can only watch.

How about this scenario:

Shiki: Ciel-sempai, could you lend me Black Barrel?
Ciel: What for?
Shiki: Need to put concept of death into somebody...

cd_young said:
It can't ignore something that is in the records. Moku and Kaguya are immortals. that is more then likely in the records about them. But, this is comparing a setting with no True Immortality, and one with True Immortality.

Emm... You know... I think that Shiki can kill at least Mokou since she once was mortal and so concept of ending is in her body unlike ORT. Hourai Elixir is simply divine protection from death, but MEoDP ignore any protection as long as target has concept of ending.

And one more thing about Mokou: SHE HAS HUMAN SOUL! And Shiki destroyed soul of Roa!

Shiroi_Ren said:
How about this scenario:

Shiki: Ciel-sempai, could you lend me Black Barrel?
Ciel: What for?
Shiki: Need to put concept of death into somebody...

Ciel doesn't have the rank to access a Knight Arm like Black Barrel. On top of that she'd never lend it out like it was a set of car keys.

Emm... You know... I think that Shiki can kill at least Mokou since she once was mortal and so concept of ending is in her body unlike ORT. Hourai Elixir is simply divine protection from death, but MEoDP ignore any protection as long as target has concept of ending.

And one more thing about Mokou: SHE HAS HUMAN SOUL! And Shiki destroyed soul of Roa!

He didn't destroy Roa's soul, he killed it. Piercing a dot ends a soul's existence in the world and forces it back to Ashaka for reincarnation.

Moku is a human, but she is not apart of the cycle anymore. it's been stated by the administrator of the dead, Yuyuko herself. One is considered dead when they travel to her mansion, and neither Moku or Kaguya can go there.

Added, Yuyuko who can instill the power of death in anything(aka instantly killing it), cannot use her power on either of them.

Shiki might be able to cut them. I seriously doubt it, they're both very powerful, aside from Kaguya being an alien so she's exempt from Gaia's system anyway. He could more then likely injure their bodies. though I doubt his cutting lines will effect them for long since their immortality preserves them as they are, they'll probably recover anything cut off.

Though to make the point as axact as I can. Moku does not have Dots. She lacks a concept of death because she cannot die.

fiendmaw said:
Not to burst your bubble,but if its the Nanaya Shiki from Melty Blood,he doesnt have the Mystic Eyes of Death perception.
This is probably the work of his Mystic Gland of Bitch Attraction.

Actually, he has them.
Nanaya Shiki from MB is a White Len creation using Shiki unused persona.
The one you're talking about is Kagetsu Tohya Nanaya

Nanayatsu said:
Actually, he has them.
Nanaya Shiki from MB is a White Len creation using Shiki unused persona.
The one you're talking about is Kagetsu Tohya Nanaya

Nanaya is Shiki's true persona. Him as a demon hunting assassin, that doesn't change that he's got the Eyes of Certain Death. He's actually merged his Nanaya and his Tohno persona into a singular persona called Nanyatsu which is what he uses when he hunts Apostles with Arucreid.

Anyway.
Nanaya Shiki in the fighting game is actually a creation of Tantara's. It was apart of his reality marble, Night of Wallichia, which causes unfounded rumors to become real. It was carried over into the sequals because White Len is made from his remains.

I highly doubt, that if Mokou/Kaguya both had their concepts of death removed from them entirely, that they would have any lines or dots on them at all. Both lines and dots are both indicators of conceptual death. Lines are more physical death, while dots are complete oblivion... wait. Like I said waaaay back up there in the comments, it'd kinda depend on how M/K's immortality works. Do they "die" and then come back to life? If so, lines would be there, for they are "physical" death. Dot's wouldn't be there, since that is "complete" death. Of course, this is without the whole "M/K are existences from the Moon not Gaia/affected by a non-Gaian force" thing.

One thing I'd also like to know is how Yuyuko's "power of death" works. Does she just cut someone's life to an end, or "force" the concept of death to a person's being? How it works would be a great asset to seeing of the MEoDP have any chance at all to affect the duo.

Someone was talking about Servants before... Servants do have a concept of death. It's seeing it that's the problem. Shiki? Hell no. His brain'd explode way before he could see a line. Ryougi? She probably could, but good luck trying to cut it. Ryougi's only a match for the weakest Servants. All that considered, the fact the Servants' deaths can be seen at all is because they are Gaian entities, and have Gaian concepts of death, which the Eyes can see. ORT, like I said before, cannot be affected by the MEoDP because it ain't from Earth/Gaia at all, which could also make it so that M/K's deaths are exempt from the MEoDP anyway.

But, like I said before as well, and like talk was before about Black Barrel, just because M/K can't die doesn't mean that the Nasuverse has no way to make them. The Church has a bunch of conceptual weapons to force the concepts of death onto a being, as well as the super weapons used to kill the Types in Notes. In fact, I'd say that M/K should be fawning over Ciel instead of Shiki- she may not have the rank for a Black Barrel, but she probably knows people who can get their hands on one. All she needs to do is to claim M/K are contradictions to God, and bam, death warrant.

Nanayatsu said:
Actually, he has them.
Nanaya Shiki from MB is a White Len creation using Shiki unused persona.
The one you're talking about is Kagetsu Tohya Nanaya

Ooh, this is always a pet peeve of mine. Nanaya Shiki, as a separate entity, DOES NOT HAVE THE EYES. In KT nor in MB. In KT it was because he was a dream persona. In MB, it's because he is simply a construct born from rumors- rumors, which I might add, DO NOT MENTION ANY EYES. Thus, no MEoDP. Also, White Len may have made Nanaya in later games, but she can't "make" the MEoDP. They're much too complicated for a simple construct. If it were that easy, you'd see MEoDP users everywhere. There's a reason why Nasu stated that Ryougi and Shiki are in alternate universes- the MEoDP's existence is so rare that there really can only be one user in a world.

Moku and Kaguya can physically die. They keep tally of their feud with the numbers of deaths they deal, and each of Moku's spellcards ends with her body physically being destroyed only to instantly regenerate. They are incapable of a true death as I've been saying, because they are exempt from the cycle of death and rebirth.

And Yuyuko's power is Instilling death in living things. She wills someone's life to end basically.

And Servents do not have a concept of death. They are already dead so they cannot be sent into the reincarnation cycle because they are in the Throne of Heros as Guardians and Counter Guardians. The constructed bodies that house their spirits can however be killed, but for Tohno to conceptualize their lines, the strain would kill him instantly by crushing his brain. Ryougi on the other hand, has the opposite type of Eyes of Certain Death, Nanaya can only see the end of life. Tohno(Roa) can see the middle of life (which is how he can steal life with his eyes), But Ryougi can see the Origin of life, which is why she is capable of attacking and killing conceptual constructs amd spirits. However, Neither Nanaya or Ryuogi's eyes can permanently kill Kaguya, Moku or Erin. The Houri Elixir fixes a persons body and soul at one instant, all other concepts of life ceases for them. They have no beginning of life, nor any end of life. SHIKI's eyes can effect them, since they steal life force, can effect them, but his eyes cannot kill. The ONLY way for anyone from Type-MOON can kill the Houri Immortals is to rewrite the very concept of Immortality, which only Ryuogi's fourth Personality, the personification of the Ashaka Records itself, can do.

I guess I should have been more clear then, but it's not confirmed whether or not Nanaya Shiki, the one created in Re-Act by White Len, has the MEoDP. The one created by Wallachia earlier in the Melty Blood series either has them or is a liar, because he states it himself that he does.

And it's not clear if Nasu said that there can only be one user of the MEoDP per world because there can be only one, or that it's just so impossibly rare for there to be two, like getting hit by lightning after winning the lottery but a million times less likely.

Nasu has in fact stated that only one user of the True Eyes of Certain Death can exist per universe. Ryougi and Nanaya are in different realities. and Tohno's eyes aren't True, they're an off shot.

cd_young said:
Moku and Kaguya can physically die. They keep tally of their feud with the numbers of deaths they deal, and each of Moku's spellcards ends with her body physically being destroyed only to instantly regenerate. They are incapable of a true death as I've been saying, because they are exempt from the cycle of death and rebirth.

See, where did that come from? I've never been able to get anyone to give me written proof on what happens to M/K when they "die," or how their immortality works when they get fatal wounds. If this is true though, then theoretically it means that the MEoDP would work on them. So they don't have a concept of beginning or end of life- yet, they still "die" and come back to life... there's a contradiction here, see? If there is no end to your life, but you can "die" and come back to life, how is that possible if your life can't end, thus you're unable to come back to life? That aside, then M/K are basically the same as Ciel, who can be eliminated by the MEoDP. Because they are capable of "death" then they have a concept of "death" which can be seen by the MEoDP. Being able to see it is another matter entirely.

cd_young said:
And Servents do not have a concept of death. They are already dead so they cannot be sent into the reincarnation cycle because they are in the Throne of Heros as Guardians and Counter Guardians. The constructed bodies that house their spirits can however be killed, but for Tohno to conceptualize their lines, the strain would kill him instantly by crushing his brain.

That's basically what I said. Shiki/Ryougi has the ability to "kill" Servants, which are the bodily constructs you are speaking of. Killing their spirits is another matter entirely.

cd_young said:
Ryougi on the other hand, has the opposite type of Eyes of Certain Death, Nanaya can only see the end of life. Tohno(Roa) can see the middle of life (which is how he can steal life with his eyes), But Ryougi can see the Origin of life, which is why she is capable of attacking and killing conceptual constructs amd spirits.

Say wut? I'm pretty sure that Ryougi's eyes are basically exactly the same as Shiki's- except that she can kill more things because she has her own gateway to Akasha and thus doesn't have to overtax her brain. The only known differences are that 1) Ryougi can't see dots, which can easily be explained by the dots not being invented until Tsukihime years later, and 2) the lines Ryougi sees are affected by her physical strength. When Ryougi was trapped by Araya in a barrier, Touko laughed and told Araya he should have boxed her up in a concrete cell instead; Ryougi could easily cut through the barriers which have basically no substance, but with concrete she can see the lines but she'd have to have the strength to cut the concrete itself, a limitation Shiki doesn't have.

cd_young said:
Ciel doesn't have the rank to access a Knight Arm like Black Barrel. On top of that she'd never lend it out like it was a set of car keys.

Uh? The Black Barrel isn't a Knight Arm, it's a weapon from the Church. And Ciel took it from Enhance in her route in order to seal Arcueid.

cd_young said:
He could more then likely injure their bodies. though I doubt his cutting lines will effect them for long since their immortality preserves them as they are, they'll probably recover anything cut off.

If he can see lines on them and cut them, they won't be able to regenerate, at all. They won't die, of course, but they won't be able to attach severed limbs, something severed by the MEoDP cannot ever be reattached, this is why Arc had to recreate her body. But Shiki would most likely be unable to see anything because they are alien.

Sephiroth_Angel said:
Uh? The Black Barrel isn't a Knight Arm, it's a weapon from the Church. And Ciel took it from Enhance in her route in order to seal Arcueid.

The Black Barrel is a Knight arm. Check Notes.

If he can see lines on them and cut them, they won't be able to regenerate, at all. They won't die, of course, but they won't be able to attach severed limbs, something severed by the MEoDP cannot ever be reattached, this is why Arc had to recreate her body. But Shiki would most likely be unable to see anything because they are alien.

Moku and Kaguya's immortality has sealed them within one defined instant, since it's base is Kaguya's power over Eternity and an Instant. Whenever they die they're "reset" to that one instant. And only Kaguya's an alien, Moku was a human.

Farran said:
That's basically what I said. Shiki/Ryougi has the ability to "kill" Servants, which are the bodily constructs you are speaking of. Killing their spirits is another matter entirely.

Say wut? I'm pretty sure that Ryougi's eyes are basically exactly the same as Shiki's- except that she can kill more things because she has her own gateway to Akasha and thus doesn't have to overtax her brain. The only known differences are that 1) Ryougi can't see dots, which can easily be explained by the dots not being invented until Tsukihime years later, and 2) the lines Ryougi sees are affected by her physical strength. When Ryougi was trapped by Araya in a barrier, Touko laughed and told Araya he should have boxed her up in a concrete cell instead; Ryougi could easily cut through the barriers which have basically no substance, but with concrete she can see the lines but she'd have to have the strength to cut the concrete itself, a limitation Shiki doesn't have.

Ryuogi's eyes are aligned differently then Nanaya, she can see the Origin, due to her stronger connection, and because when she gained her eyes her mind was in a state of nothingness, due to coma.

cd_young said:
The Black Barrel is a Knight arm. Check Notes.

Lol no it isn't. You should check Notes. It was excavated and found by Godo, then he modified it a bit. It's used by Godo, and it's a Conceptual Weapon, and Ciel borrowed it from Enhance in her route. A Knight Arm is completely different, and it can only be used by Ether Liners.

"An infant having a great amount of grain upon birth will develop the grain as if it were an extra bone in its body, and on maturity, will release it into the outer world with a definite form."

That's what a Knight Arm is.

Ah my apologies, there's alot of things to keep track of in Nasu's works.

The main problem in this discussion is that Nasuverse HAS solid rules for immortality and other abilities and Touhouverse HASN'T. But...

The power behind Hourai Elixir is the same as the power of allmost all DDA in Nasuverse - the Restoration HEX. Ability not to regenerate but rather to rewind time to position before wound was inflicted. In other words Hourai Elixir created time loop... Perfect time loop (unlike DDA) but... For MEoDP it's nothing more than simple time loop. So as long as he can understand Mokou (she is human after all) - she as good as dead, Kaguya - is different league.

No, it's not.

The immortals cannot cross over to Hakugyokurou. Entering the underworld in Gensokyo is the same as being considered dead.

In Tsukihime Dead Apostles and Dead Apostle Ancesters can be killed, because while they can regenerate, they still have a defined death that their vampirism is delaying. Moku and Kaguya don't have one.

They are, by all senses Perfectly Immortal.

All right. I found how Hourai Elixir is working. Well at least how it must work in our case (so it could work in both universes).

Hourai Elixir keep present state for eternity. In other words Hourai Elixir is simple save/load ability. When person drunk Elixir his/her state (physical condition) is saved. If somehow this person would die - Elixir loads saved state.

For Tsukihime it creates time loop paradox (kind like in FHA but only for one person) that removes soul from circle of reincarnation (Roa used some sophisticated method for this too) but not completely.

For perfect immortality. In Touhou there is no description of PI. But in Tsukihime it was said that Arcuied is the most close being to PI. We could say that Heroic Spirits are Perfectly Immortal but they are paradox outside of Akasha.

You are not getting this. They have transcended the cycle of death and rebirth. They are outside of the Akasha records ability to reincarnate souls.

THEY. CANNOT. PERMANENTLY. DIE.

There are no dots and if there are lines on Moku, they are either buried by the power of her prana, or they're beyond Shiki's ability to understand.

It's useless to argue with you since you do not prove your point with logic. You put only Touhou references but do not merge them with Tsukihime. So it's useless.

Being a Lunarian does not actually make you exempt to Gaia's concept of death, considering that Lunarians originate from Earth to begin with.

The only way I can see for the Mystic Eyes to kill a Hourai immortal is to kill the Hourai Elixir itself, but that's probably impossible for Shiki.

The only thing the above discussion told me is that Type-MOON rules are too complicated.

You know what screw it. Tl:dr but that Shiki's MEoDP probably can't kill them. If it can be done, it has to be Ryougi's ver. of MEoDP. Her eyes can kill all that has existence. It was stated, and not exaggerated, if god existed she could kill it. Heck she can even kill concepts like when Asagami Fujino had appendicitis, she killed it without harming her externally nor internally.

Even that it still in debate whatever Shiki can kill them or not, I think we all can agree that Shiki can romanced them off.

The gland is strong in this one.

It should be stated that the Hourai Elixir itself does not possess the power to grant immortality, but to make one's existence completely independent of even the concept of reality. This power gives the ability of immortality, a true immortality in a sense that making one not subject to the bounds of life, death, or even manipulation, although the pain of injuries can still be felt. And remember, the Hourai Elixir itself is made by both Eirin and Kaguya's ability to control eternity. Since both Kaguya's and Mokou's existence are completely isolated from the concept of reality, I doubt Shiki's MEoDP can touch them.
cite: http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Hourai_Elixir

Just my two cents, but isn't Akasha an omnipotent entity with the ability to completely screw with the universe as it wishes? Can't it just "take away" Mokou and Kaguya's immortality?

Traditionally, it's said that the Hourai Elixir works in three steps:
The first sip grants eternal youth.
The second sip grants eternal health.
The third sip grants true immortality.

And apparently the stuff stays in the liver.

Personally I think at the very least you could stab the Elixir outta someone. It'd take 3 stabbings, though. :V

Wow, this pic alone sparks an unexpectedly interesting debates.