clothes actions disambiguation

BUR #16418 has been rejected.

create alias clothes_pull -> clothes_pulled_down
create alias clothes_lift -> clothes_pulled_up

this set of tags is a bit of a mess, given that we have things like post #6239167 (nsfw) tagged clothes pull when it should be clothes lift, post #6239362 tagged as clothes lift when it's really wind lift, or even post #5662134 that has all three of them...?

the aliases are to clarify the direction of these actions and to further cement that they require human action, to address the first two examples I brought up.

something I'd also like to mention is clothes tug. the wiki of clothes tug defines it as the opposite of clothes pull, as in pulling an article of clothing down to cover instead of expose something, but is filled with actual tugging actions like all of these. what makes the most sense imo is to keep "clothes tug" for any such tugging actions and throw the LARPing clothes pull posts where they belong. I recognize that the clothes pull/lift wikis keep their narrow definition because people want to search for exactly that, but it doesn't make sense to keep so limited a guideline for such a broad term.

edit: word choice

I feel like it would still be useful to have a tag specifically for the concept of someone tugging at their clothes to cover themselves up, it'd be harder to search for that specific situation if they're mixed in with all of the clothes lift or clothes pull posts. Maybe "Modesty Tug" or something to that effect would work?

TenaciousTurtleDucks said:

I feel like it would still be useful to have a tag specifically for the concept of someone tugging at their clothes to cover themselves up, it'd be harder to search for that specific situation if they're mixed in with all of the clothes lift or clothes pull posts. Maybe "Modesty Tug" or something to that effect would work?

That's pretty much already what clothes tug does if we go by it's wiki, so it's less about adding a specific tag for the concept and more about clarifying it to get better use of it

Mayhem-Chan said:

That's pretty much already what clothes tug does if we go by it's wiki, so it's less about adding a specific tag for the concept and more about clarifying it to get better use of it

Right, I was just proposing that as an alternative to dumping all of those examples into the clothes pull tag, if we were to redefine the clothes tug tag to be exclusively for posts like these examples as OP suggests

Also worth keeping in mind is that there are a lot of clothing specific variations of the pull/lift/tug etc. tags

Pull Tags

Lift Tags

Tug Tags

Grab Tags

Hold Tags

TenaciousTurtleDucks said:

Right, I was just proposing that as an alternative to dumping all of those examples into the clothes pull tag, if we were to redefine the clothes tug tag to be exclusively for posts like these examples as OP suggests

I would support this idea, as it sums up my feelings about clothes tug. simple tugging on another's clothing to get their attention or annoy them should not be grouped alongside often embarrassed pulling of clothes to cover oneself. "modesty tug" might be confusing when the idea is to separate it from the concept of tugging, so I'd prefer modesty pull instead. not the most intuitive, but it describes the action and the purpose well enough.

Also worth keeping in mind is that there are a lot of clothing specific variations of the pull/lift/tug etc. tags
...

I will add all the related pull/lift tags following the format used in the BUR, but only if more people seem to be onboard with it. otherwise it's a waste of time.

shirt tug and its other clothing tugs sound a lot like what I'd like to do with clothes tug, but its wiki keeps the "pulling clothes down to cover onself" definition. it seems like many users had the same idea and just didn't read its wiki, given the large amount of "incorrect" usages to describe tugging on clothes. I'm even more convinced now that these *_tug tags should be kept for tugging actions, and the pulling of clothes to preserve modesty can be called modesty pull.

clothes grab seems to be a weird mixture of clothes hold, tugging actions, and grabbing actions. a lot of the tug/grab instances are confused due to a lack of proper clarification between them. I'd like to propose a new system, which includes the following:
*_hold is for actions performed on self, see post #6230280
*_tug is for actions performed on others with a tugging action (clasping the fabric with the thumb and index finger), see post #6122976
*_grab is for actions performed on others with a grabbing action (clasping the fabric with the whole hand), see post #6210954

an alternative way to tag grab/tug would be to gauge the forcefulness of the gesture, but I don't think that's plausible for general tagging. take post #6135549 for example, I would call that action a tug, but under the definitions listed above it would be a grab. however to not make this needlessly complicated I'd forgo "how forceful is it?" since it's not a consistent measurement.

Sorry for derailing, but gonna post the mandatory unpopular opinion grown from years of using these tags: they are bad.

These tags are one of the things that has always baffled me about our tagging system.
Why do we have an umbrella tag for shirt lift/sweater lift and skirt lift/pelvic curtain lift? Why do we group together sports bra pull and skirt pull? They're actions with completely different contexts.

It's even worse when you consider that you're supposed to use lifted by self/lifted by another/pulled_by_self/pulled by another in combination with them instead of having intuitive tags.
Why aren't we using "lifting own (top/shirt/sweater)" or "lifting another's skirt"? Why aren't we making a distinction between "panties being down on their own" (panties_down) and "panties being actively pulled by someone" (pulling_another's_panties or something, idk) and "a character undressing" (removing_own_panties or something, again idk)?

nonamethanks said:

Sorry for derailing, but gonna post the mandatory unpopular opinion grown from years of using these tags: they are bad.

These tags are one of the things that has always baffled me about our tagging system.
Why do we have an umbrella tag for shirt lift/sweater lift and skirt lift/pelvic curtain lift? Why do we group together sports bra pull and skirt pull? They're actions with completely different contexts.

It's even worse when you consider that you're supposed to use lifted by self/lifted by another/pulled_by_self/pulled by another in combination with them instead of having intuitive tags.
Why aren't we using "lifting own (top/shirt/sweater)" or "lifting another's skirt"? Why aren't we making a distinction between "panties being down on their own" (panties_down) and "panties being actively pulled by someone" (pulling_another's_panties or something, idk) and "a character undressing" (removing_own_panties or something, again idk)?

That's... a very good point actually, i really like the suggestion, if the whole group of clothes action tags can be reworked to be more intuitive i'm all for it

my take on this would be to...
1. nuke + deprecate clothes lift, clothes pull, clothes tug, and clothes grab, because as you say they serve no purpose other than to satiate the Danbooru tag tree with generalized implications
2. alias the existing *_pull and *_lift tags to a new "own/another's" version, two per each clothing tag
3. alias *_tug tags to tugging_another's_*, self versions can be manually split later since the majority of *_tug is actions on others, minus modesty actions (though I would argue that "tug" on self can be seen as hold)
4. alias *_hold tags to holding_own_*, as I only saw self instances upon cursory glance. like #3, the opposite can be addressed at a later point
5. any "pulling for modesty" tags like skirt tug could be alias moved to covering self, since its wiki allows for covering with both hands and clothes.

the whole "pulling up/down" clarity issue of the #2 tags mentioned in the original BUR would be solved by adding "own/another's" into the tag name.

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The bulk update request #16418 (forum #239551) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.