Posted under General
Pretty_Princess said:
I was right about the sexism ^.^
You really need to drop this line. Its not endearing you to anyone here.
Especially those of us who really do get quite upset at actual sexism.
I don't care you're male, female or futa, the pool is judged entirely independently of who created it. You have no ownership over anything on this site except your own forum posts and comments on images.
Mine as well. Danbooru's basic purpose is no-nonsense, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that the general attitude around here is "Fun takes a backseat to function."
Personally, I'm in favor of keeping the pool. It does intend to satisfy a certain theme that would be hard to use as a tag.
One of the problems we always run into with pools that have any degree of vagueness re: their subject matter is that Joe/Jane Danbooru-user will see the pool, and immediately jump to conclusions about what the standards for that pool ought to be, and (if we're being realistically cynical) seldom bothers to read the pool's description beyond the first line, let alone reviewing the pool's contents to get a feel for the theme. If you're the owner of such a pool, it falls on you to police it, or else we end up with a brouhaha like the one we're in now.
If I were to inject my own flavor of description to the pool, I'd say something like:
If the level of girly-girlness visible in the image is in any way less subtle than a sledgehammer to the face, it doesn't belong in this pool.
Feel free to use or modify that as you like.
GrandAdmiralSean8 said:
It's consistent with my (admittedly limited) experience.
Well I hope others agree, otherwise I'm gonna sound reeeeaaaally stupid.
The reason I said I was right about sexism is because I was wrong about where and how. It's how people act here that is sexist, not specifically how they act against me. See, acting like we're ia a high powered business meeting is sexist because high powered business meetings are fairly sexist in and of themselves. Here's my rationale:
There was a time when women were property, they had few (if any) rights. Yes there were women who were outside of this dynamic, but their effect was essentially negligable. It was during this time that men were the exclusive participants of business.
Eventually women earned the right to participate in business, but naturally there was a high degree of resistance. Men did everything they could to keep women out. Women continued to make progress, but much the business tradition from this time remains with us today - a tradition which was based on sexism.
The most important point I want to make here is that men weren't sexist on purpose. They were simply perpetuating the way things had been, much like men do today. They didn't know they were being sexist. When I say that things are sexist here I believe the same thing; that any sexist actions are taken unknowingly.
As a woman, being thrust into an environment with such curt and to-the-point discussion is very uncomfortable. My comfort zone is in being much more polite, even if I feel otherwise. So interacting in this environment makes me feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. That's sexism.
Now I know that no one here is going to tell me to shutup, call me a cunt, and tell me to get back in the kitchen, the sexism I experienced was extremely subtle. It's probably exaggerated by the fact that I'm a transwoman, because we tend to be overly feminine compared to most "real" women.
In the realm of descrimination, having good intentions isn't the only thing, but it's necessary for change. I'm just giving you guys an opportunity.
It seems to me that a less ambiguous name would be a tremendous help in regulating the theme of this pool, even moreso than a more detailed description.
I loved the name "Sugar and Spice", but it seems to have confused some other posters. "Hyper-feminine" is problematic in that people have widely divergent ideas about femininity. (We are, after all, members of website devoted to Japanese art, and the Japanese conception of womanhood is rather different than the American conception.)
Is "Girly-girl" accurate? "Glamorous", maybe? I'm really not too knowledgeable about this aesthetic, so I leave that question to Pretty Princess.
Pretty_Princess said:
As a woman, being thrust into an environment with such curt and to-the-point discussion is very uncomfortable. [snip] That's sexism.
Please forgive my impertinence, ma'am, but for a transsexual, you seem to have a huge emotional investment in gender essentialism. You are assuming quite explicitly that "femininity" means the same thing to all women in all cultures.
I sympathize with your distaste for curt conversation, but that's a matter of personality, not of gender. I am a heterosexual man who prefers polite conversation. I know any number of women (yes, some of them businesswoman) who consider their bluntness part and parcel of their femininity.
Pretty_Princess said:
I'm just giving you guys an opportunity.
Frankly, ma'am, I'm forced to question your goodwill on that point. In your very first post in the previous thread, you said you expected to be ignored. That kind of attitude would seem to indicate a determination not to give us an opportunity; it is not only an assumption but an invitation of ill-will.
In any case, it is not your prerogative to grant anyone opportunities.
Pretty_Princess said:
(shortened for brevity's sake) much the business tradition from this time remains with us today - a tradition which was based on sexism.
Sexism may have accompanied the business world, but - as any respectable analyst can tell you - correlation does not equal causation.
Your interpretation says that sexism is the root of modern business practice. Mine says that said practice stems from the pragmatic "time is money" paradigm, thus the need to keep things short and to the point. I won't debate you on which is right, as this isn't the place for it.
On that note, please don't use Danbooru as a place to start debates about society, gender roles, or the philosophies that accompany them. There are tons and tons of forums better-equipped for it, and more importantly, this is not the place for it. I could care less whether you are a man, woman, something in between, or a pink hippopotamus typing with a stick held in its mouth; this isn't the place for discussion of matters not directly related to the practical functioning of the site.
Seriously it is just a pool don't be like this, just accept the fact that someday some pools are meant to be shutdown if someone found it pointless, we only need few themed pool in danbooru, beside you cannot get some positive feed backs just creating pools, you need to contribute a real thing that will improve this place a little bit, this site is serving a lot of users, so it must always maintain the order.
I respect ladies (if ever you are), but it seems this forum is getting a bit pointless, you need to relax a bit, there are lot of stuff in here to enjoy other than the pools, try to browse some more... or if you really love pink and girly stuffs, you can just subscribe to a tag or add posts to your favorites...
Please try to understand...
GrandAdmiralSean8 said:
You are assuming quite explicitly that "femininity" means the same thing to all women in all cultures.I sympathize with your distaste for curt conversation, but that's a matter of personality, not of gender. I know any number of women (yes, some of them businesswoman) who consider their bluntness part and parcel of their femininity.
Frankly, ma'am, I'm forced to question your goodwill on that point. In your very first post in the previous thread, you said you expected to be ignored. That kind of attitude would seem to indicate a determination not to give us an opportunity; it is not only an assumption but an invitation of ill-will.
In any case, it is not your prerogative to grant anyone opportunities.
You make a good point that it's rather high-and-mighty for me to talk like that. I thought it was a positive way to end my eplanation.
I said I expected to be dismissed, buthoped not to be. I feel I was dismissed and I think I had good reason to expect such a reaction at the time. I wasn't referring to people who are polite in that statement either.
As for your examples it is very true that how people act has a lot to do with personality. However, I think that given this site's generally western-world style, I think it's safe to say that bluntness is moreso associated as a masculine trait and that masculinity and femininity have clear distinctions. Also, while the people you know are awesome signs of progress, they're still the exception rather than the rule. Just because some women wouldn't feel out of place doesn't mean others won't feel like it was sexism. Not to mention that men would only feel like such treatment was sexist in the rarest of circumstances.
I just don't think most men would think that it could be sexist and I'm trying to raise awareness using myself as an example. (although not very effectively lol)
To say this thread has derailed is an understatement.
Pretty Princess, I am going to ask you--and everyone else--nicely: Drop the gender discussion. This will be your final warning. The members that are on Danbooru right now are being especially patient with you; normally you would have received a negative record, if not outright banned.
To any moderator or record vigilante that reads this, I ask that you hold off on the negs and bans. Unless if the natter resumes, please give them one last chance.
Well I think this thread's purpose is actually fulfilled. I got the answers I needed. I have another issue, but it's the topic of another thread. You guys wouldn't like it anyway so I'm not going to bother. If you want to know you can PM me.
So can I delete the thread or do I have to wait for a mod?
Pretty Princess, I like the title "Sugar & spice" just fine, however it's undeniably unclear and unclear pool name should be changed.
You want to collect feminine pictures, but as I said in the rewritten description, girly girls are not rare. If we allow you to include everything that has a little pheromone in it, it's reasonable to create "Masculine girls", "High-class girls", "GAR-induced girls" pools as well. 80% of Danbooru will be divided into these sections. Simply not too useful.
Think clearly and narrowly about what you want to pool up the most and change the description according to that. I think your idea of "alone in my room, being naturally girly, what normal teenage boys fantasize about" is good, should have gone with that from the beginning.
Updated
Quoted from forum #55690:
There are other pools which exceed the size of my pool by twice or more already
And all of them have serious issues as well. Yours was actually worse in the sense the theme is even larger than theirs, and better in the sense said theme could at least be restricted (good luck trying so with pool #1277 or pool #903).
Furthermore, I'm the one putting in the effort so it's really a personal issue.
Just so you know, no it's not when visible to everyone. For cluttering issues as already mentionned, but also for the "let's make pools about whatever" feeling that has made the pools section of the site explode over the last year (you don't have the same degree of freedom with pools than you would with your own favorites, because no pool is "your own").
Too many users think all pools are fine because they see everyone doing the same. There's a lot of regulation needed behind this.
Your concept in forum #55711 is better now anyway.
(And this thread has made Fencedude's line in forum #55729 quite brilliant in hindsight.)
Updated
Fencedude said:
Something like half of Kamiya Tomoe's art is in that pool, and while a good chunk of it fits, an aweful lot of it doesn't.
Ya don't get me wrong, I was just looking at the overall theme of the image and it came across as "girly". Looked at some of the other stuff by the artist and ya it is not overtly "girly".
Hmm, to add my 2 cents, though most of this has already been stated and restated:
1. I tend to be an inclusionist rather than a deletionist, and I think cluttering the pool list is a rather poor reason to delete pools (though we tend to do that a lot, which I never really have agreed with). This is especially true given the fact that Danbooru 2 is on the horizon, and promises to take care of a lot of the pool interface problems.
2. Although we treat subjective pools with more leniency than subjective tags (which are just a plain bad idea), having a well defined pool definition is always a better idea. It cuts down on arguments on what should and shouldn't be included, and prevents people from claiming a pool is meaningless and should be deleted. "Girls in lingerie lying on their beds" is a much better and more well defined theme than "Girly je ne sais quoi".
3. I think witty titles are fine, but the description should provide a good definition of what can and cannot be included, as noted above.
4. The sexist argument really is poorly placed here. No one was taking anyone's gender (or gender itself) into consideration when debating this pool. The only time it became an issue was when you raised it. Yes, we tend to operate in a "no-nonsense" manner here in the forums, that's not anti-female, it's just a way of getting things done more efficiently and effectively. Yes, certain members (especially Fencedude and Hazuki) are somewhat brusque; that's just their personality. They also apply that brusqueness across the board without regard to people's (unperceivable) gender. That's hardly sexist.
Updated
Can I add something?
If it was "Sugar & Spice" (it is a nice name) then half the current images wouldn't really fit for either term by opinion. And it seems like one member (and some others) added a bunch of images that would work best on their 'favorites' page.
If certain artist/s works are dominating the pool, then what purpose is having half their work in it? By that point it is easier to just track your favorite artist/s on your profile. The same goes for certain tags that will constantly bring up the same image with not much change.
Many of the current images in this pool are girls in bikinis, nude, sweaty or masturbating; another is pages of Miku Hatsune- even though the pool states that notable amounts of (insert girlish terms here). This image (post #577176) certainly doesn't make me think "how girly". Perhaps you have your own definition, and I do believe girly elements can work with bikinis and nudity, but clothed characters will pretty much dominate that view.
I think the creator of the pool should delete many of the images, temporarily set it to private and then place the images (by different artists, series, and originals) as prime examples for others. I don't know when "Hyper-femininity" became the title, but is that the reason why so many images flooded the pool?
To go back to the title "Sugar & Spice", I instantly think of girly & sexy, I figured the pool content was balanced by the name alone, even with the desc, but I never got what the creator was looking for. Though certainly "Hyper-femininity" is quite vague and misleading.
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