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Doujin rule(s) discussion

Posted under General

This is based on the discussion in forum #64808 specifically:

F.I.A said:

As for Black Candy, if there is anything it does is made me read the series it is based on. What keeps it running is new rule like this , which pretty much means free ticket to get an approval.

That said, unless the rule about doujin is reworked, it's a loss cause to discuss about this.

Currently the rule potentially in question regarding Doujin is here: forum #63240

The rule was based on the existing unwritten policy that an approved comic should generally continue to be approved.

Both the original unwritten rule and the defined one were really intended for long running comics or fixed length ones that were already on the site.

For example: pool #714 Tag Dream

Anything new images would be approved and if any old images were missed they would be approved even though the artwork was not great.

That being said I suspect there is some confusion. The written definition of the unwritten rule (cannot speak for the unwritten rule itself) was not intended as a free pass for two cases:

1. There is a doujin on pixiv 50 pages long and 5 pages get uploaded then approved. The next 45 pages should not automatically be approved via the rule.

At least half should still be required to fall under the fill rule.

2. Where a doujin is uploaded from the middle or latter. Only when the comic is uploaded from the start should it be considered since someone could be using the artists better artwork to "cheat" the system and point 1.

Being the creator of the "rule" in question please realize that it is open to any and all modifications needed or can be totally scraped if unworkable.

Its existence is still based solely on the unwritten policy regarding doujin.

P.S.

I never intended the rule to apply to scanlations. If it cannot be sourced back to a website where the doujin is being put up for free (pixiv, home page) IMO it shouldn't be here anyway.

Updated

Pyrolight said:

Being the creator of the "rule" in question please realize that it is open to any and all modifications needed or can be totally scraped if unworkable.

Just to confirm I am in fact Pyrolight (permanent account).

I've sort of wanted a flagging system for pools, much like flagging posts. Maybe a forum topic to discuss pools which we would like extra consideration. However, I think that would be difficult to pull off, and I don't know who would even have the authority to accept or decline proposals to delete pools and images within then.

I would like to add that this also applies to large series of related images (you can see iori98 doing this a lot, the "infamous" pool #3839 for example). I do agree it's not acceptable for people to upload the first few images of a series and get approval, then take that to mean the rest gets a free pass for approval.

Honestly though, only a few users constantly abuse this rule to upload entire sets at a time. Occasionally a member here or there uploads one here and there, but there are mainly a dozen or so major uploaders in this area. Perhaps we can simply stave this off by giving them a gentle reminder that they should judge quality more carefully. And to learn that サンプル = "sample".

Mysterio006 said:

I would like to add that this also applies to large series of related images (you can see iori98 doing this a lot, the "infamous" pool #3839 for example).

Well to me as far as the fill rule goes, a pool like that does not apply. I would hazard to guess it wouldn't apply to the unwritten rule either.

I do agree it's not acceptable for people to upload the first few images of a series and get approval, then take that to mean the rest gets a free pass for approval.

Ya that really was never the intent of the fill rule. I can see how it could be taken like that though.

Perhaps we can simply stave this off by giving them a gentle reminder that they should judge quality more carefully. And to learn that サンプル = "sample".

Doujin = judged as a whole.
Image Set = judged per image.

Sample images from doujins just really need to die.

Okay so if I'm reading this right the rules are that doujin samples should not be posted, doujins without links to the original author should also not be posted, and in my case where I posted pool #3839 that should be discouraged and not posted. So should I finish that series or kill it

iori98 said:
Okay so if I'm reading this right the rules are that doujin samples should not be posted, doujins without links to the original author should also not be posted, and in my case where I posted pool #3839 that should be discouraged and not posted. So should I finish that series or kill it

This is just opinions atm. There really is nothing written or unwritten regarding what you wrote.

Samples - Generally speaking, (here and in forum #64808) are frowned upon but no rule has yet been laid out. atm it is part of the discussion.

Scanlations - Are copyright infringement but again no specific rule against uploading it exists as far as I know.

Images sets - The issue here is that they are being treated as Doujin with regards to the rules. There is nothing wrong with uploading image sets, it is just making sure the right rules are applied to them.

That being said when it comes to image sets, the above is how I see them with regards to the "fill rules". That could change if it is decided they are close enough to "doujin" to count.

So as I say atm nothing is set in stone, this thread is to more or less decide on the grey areas.

iori98 said:
Okay so if I'm reading this right the rules are that doujin samples should not be posted, doujins without links to the original author should also not be posted, and in my case where I posted pool #3839 that should be discouraged and not posted. So should I finish that series or kill it

Nobody can really stop you from uploading the rest of the series if you wish. In my personal opinion though, I dislike this image set, particularly because the artwork is at best below average. I like Nausicaa and all, but sometimes being a parody isn't enough of a reason to upload. As Pyrolight stated, we're just having a discussion here, nothing solid.

I see. Well I was iffy on the rules and wanted to make sure because it seems I stepped on some toes here. Well for now I guess I'll finish but I think danbooru should have a system were overly long doujins or comics have to meet prior approval from a mod or janitor before being posted so hassles like this can be avoided

I suggest that this should be sticky, just to have some reminder from us Doujin uploader.

iori98 said:
I think danbooru should have a system were overly long doujins or comics have to meet prior approval from a mod or janitor before being posted so hassles like this can be avoided

Yeah I agree on that, because uploading long doujins or comics is such a waste of precious time if it won't be approve, there are also lots of tagging should be done that consumes a lot of work and time.

I think the actual issue is not doujin itself.
It's how there is no real goal in the imageboard. Quality images? sure. Doujins can pass? okay. COmic relief works too.

Now we're saying nope, doesn't work anymore. We want quality content yet create a way to let some users upload without any check.

if you want to control the quality, you must put a middleman no matter what, in my opinion. But the middleman must know as well what should be allowed or not.

The system is currently based on janitors' own point of views, and if they don't like a specific image, they wont accept it. However if there is one person that likes it, it'll be allowed in. That's where the problem lies in such a system as danbooru queue system.

Quality contents get lost in mod queue, maybe because there are a lot of post, janitors didn't want to check, or couldn't, they didn't like it...
Meanwhile, some lower end content can get through because no one checks, or one person out of let's say 30 liked it.

In other words, maybe the whole system of Danbooru could need some rethinking.

Nials said:
I think the actual issue is not doujin itself.
It's how there is no real goal in the imageboard. Quality images? sure. Doujins can pass? okay. COmic relief works too.

Now we're saying nope, doesn't work anymore. We want quality content yet create a way to let some users upload without any check.

I think you misunderstand the intent of the rule. A doujin that has had 50 pages so far approved (it is 50 pages long atm) is assumed to be of danbooru quality since the content (story verbal and non verbal) won't much change and the art will (hopefully) only get better.

The rule was intended such that any new pages from that specific doujin would generally be accepted.

I want to be clear on that, generally accepted. I put the caveats in the fill rules thread and it is possible that could still be rejected or flagged and removed. It is not a free pass.

if you want to control the quality, you must put a middleman no matter what, in my opinion. But the middleman must know as well what should be allowed or not.

Not too sure exactly how this would differ from a mod. Do you mean only 1 or 2 mods to approve doujin?

The system is currently based on janitors' own point of views, and if they don't like a specific image, they wont accept it. However if there is one person that likes it, it'll be allowed in. That's where the problem lies in such a system as danbooru queue system.

Quality contents get lost in mod queue, maybe because there are a lot of post, janitors didn't want to check, or couldn't, they didn't like it...
Meanwhile, some lower end content can get through because no one checks, or one person out of let's say 30 liked it.

In other words, maybe the whole system of Danbooru could need some rethinking.

see forum #63133

Just to add some more clarification.

Before the fill thread was created all doujin uploads were viewed/modded individually with exceptions like Life of Maid.

After it died in the queue folks would have to appeal it in the deletion appeal thread (DAT). This usually meant the pages just stayed unapproved.

Now in theory the pages from the doujin should have had a "pass", the rule only tended to be used after the fact.

The idea behind the fill thread was to give a place where a mods could very quickly look and approve the pages in the thread. That is the reason there are so many rules regarding what can actually be put there.

What seems to have happened is that the unwritten rule (as well as the fill rule) are being applied to all doujin with approvals.

This is in fact against the intent of the fill thread and I suspect not quite the intent of the unwritten rule.

Doujin should still like images should be still gauged page by page.

The two expectations would be:

1. Long running like Life of Maid which are basically a gimmie as long as they don't break ToS.

2. Fixed length with 50% of the doujin already approved and again don't break ToS.

The general idea was that these doujin were basically all approved and the artist took a break and came back and did some more pages for them or a few pages here and there died in the queue. At least this was my thinking when I was writing up the fill thread.

Basically if the first 6 pages of a 30 page doujin are approved the next 9 at the very least should not be getting a "free" pass.

Btw I more or less picked 50% out of the air, if 75% or more would be a better number then it should be changed.

Mysterio006 said:
I would like to add that this also applies to large series of related images (you can see iori98 doing this a lot, the "infamous" pool #3839 for example). I do agree it's not acceptable for people to upload the first few images of a series and get approval, then take that to mean the rest gets a free pass for approval.

I'm honestly surprised any of those in that pool are on here. Saying they're "below average" is being a bit nice, but hey, at least I can just hide all from that artist.

Lil more on the subject, I usually try to judge each picture by itself but I know there's a few times I've let something on the edge slide because more from that set/artist/whatever are already up...I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done it. Still, would be nice if just a cover page or something with a link in the comments or in the source were posted instead of flooding.

Bit of brainstorming with regards to a comic rule set.

A comic: tells a story and each page will generally consist of multiple panels of images.

Some pages may only be a single image but they should be the minority of the pages.

Comics can also be "silent" ie the characters never speak.

An image set: is similar to a comic in that it can tell a story but it is different in that it will only consist of a single image per page for the majority of the pages.

Only works that are freely distributed with a online source (pixiv, author's website, etc.) will be considered as part of the "Doujin rule".

If they are scanlations they are copyright infringement and should not be uploaded.

The Doujin rule:

A comic that has a majority of its pages approved, should in general have all subsequent pages approved.

General rules for comic uploads.

1. The quality limit is lower for comics then images, but they still have to (along with the story) be of Danbooru quality. ToS violations will not be approved.

/examples

2. All new comic uploads must be from the first page onward. Cheating the system by uploading from a point where the artists work is better and thus making the comic meet danbooru standards will not be accepted.

3. A long running approved comic fall under the "doujin rule" and any pages that are not approved should be brought to the attention of the mods in forum #63240

4. Any fixed length comics 15 pages or under must be fully approved and any unapproved pages must be appealed here: forum #12247

5. Any fixed length Comics over 15 pages must either have 15 pages approved or 70% of the total comic length approved whichever is greater. At that point the comic falls under the "doujin rule" and any pages that go unapproved can be brought to the attention of the mods in forum #63240

Example 1. A comic of 30 pages must have 70% of its pages approved or 21 pages because in this case 70% of the total comic pages is greater then 15 pages.

Example 2. A comic of 20 pages must have 15 pages approved or 75% of the comic total because in this case 70% of the total pages would be less then 15 pages.

6. Non fixed length comics are applied to the above rules with some differences. The last page on the artists site when the initial uploads are being done will be considered the "end of the comic" for purposes of the calculation of the rule.

Example: The artist has a comic of 200 pages at the time you begin uploading page one and so on.

In this case 70% of the 200 pages will be required to be approved before it will fall under the "doujin rule" and as above can be brought to the attention of the mods in forum #63240.

Should the author add 50 more pages while the upload and approval process is ongoing only the initial 200 pages will be considered for the calculation.

7. Some more long winded stuff.

Remember this is nothing but brainstorming atm and as such the above rules are not remotely in an way official.

What about doujins that had been downloaded from Voile?

For example pool #2836 and pool #2200 are happen to be from the voile but still manage to maintain the Japanese text, is the doujin rules have something to do with that?

Because like FIA said Danbooru might became another Voile.

But I think its hard to determine doujins that from the voile since people sometimes forget or intentionally never put the source on their upload (since I am guilty for not putting the source but yet I never took the things that I upload from the voile).

I think that a doujin without a link back to the artist shouldn't be posted because its outside the grey area. There could be exceptions to that though like posting the work of a well liked artist or posting a sequel to a series or had prior mod approval but beyond that it shouldn't be here

Generally, the only doujin that should be posted here are the ones that are primarily posted on an artist's site, Pixiv, etc. Posting of actual, published doujin (let alone mainstream published works) should be strongly discouraged.

Pyrolight said:
If we outright "ban" copyrighted works should we grandfather in existing material and tag for deletion anything new?

I guess that could work. Maybe we should treat the grandfathered material the same way as we treat the banned artists' material, i.e. leave it up until complaints come in.

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