Steak said: Great, Suika! Now use Tenshi to beat Okuu into submission!
I've actually been wondering for a while if HS would try swinging Suika into Sakuya. I'm surprised it didn't come up here - surely Tenshi could have moved out of the way and let Suika barrel into Sakuya.
Kilgamayan said: I've actually been wondering for a while if HS would try swinging Suika into Sakuya. I'm surprised it didn't come up here - surely Tenshi could have moved out of the way and let Suika barrel into Sakuya.
That's what I was hoping for when Suika broke free. Oh well.
Ugh... Yukari better resend the condition that whoever wins this has to immediately go into their next round because otherwise having the winner of this match fight again after this is just completely unfair.
There is another match between this one and the next one the winner have. The Immortals and Red 75% Semifinals are next. Moriya and the winner of this match are after that (assuming they have time in the broadcast night...for all we know these long matches and the potental destructive match of the Immortals verse Reimu and Remila could cause the fourth match to be delayed (making Sanae's fight moot in most respects since both teams would have a month to rest and train until the next full moon).
SpecterVonBaren said: Ugh... Yukari better resend the condition that whoever wins this has to immediately go into their next round because otherwise having the winner of this match fight again after this is just completely unfair.
That would ruin the Austin/McMahon thing going on between Yukari and Tenshi, though.
SpecterVonBaren said: Ugh... Yukari better resend the condition that whoever wins this has to immediately go into their next round because otherwise having the winner of this match fight again after this is just completely unfair.
Come on, Wolverine has got nothing on Tenshi :V (seriously, though.. this reminds me of a KoF 2000 comic by Andy Seto, in which Maxima was, imo, a more believable tank than Tenshi. And seriously, too, why does Iku care so much for that spoiled, arrogant daughter-of-a-celestial?)
Kilgamayan said: I've actually been wondering for a while if HS would try swinging Suika into Sakuya. I'm surprised it didn't come up here - surely Tenshi could have moved out of the way and let Suika barrel into Sakuya.
thought the same when I was reminded of when Robert performed a Haou Shou Ko Ken super against a tired Vanessa, then K' stepped before her as her assist, and immediately targeted by Takuma, who had foreseen his assistance attempt and tried to counter it with his own, only to have K' grab him and throw him to Robert's incoming attack, forcing one of them to be injured.
as for
Steak said: Great, Suika! Now use Tenshi to beat Okuu into submission!
, this totally reminded me of the tale of the spear vs the shield (referenced in Saint Seiya, for example), the first time I thought about it. Suika, there's still time to ensure your partner gets her fight against Remi. (also, to ensure that the Team IaMP wins :D if you do fail to win, though, I can argue that "wrestling isn't about actual skill :V")
shadowbringer said: Come on, Wolverine has got nothing on Tenshi :V (seriously, though.. this reminds me of a KoF 2000 comic by Andy Seto, in which Maxima was, imo, a more believable tank than Tenshi. And seriously, too, why does Iku care so much for that spoiled, arrogant daughter-of-a-celestial?)
Arrogant? She's prideful, confident, and boastful but I'd hardly call Tenshi, as she appears in this comic, arrogant. The only time I remember her being really boastful was when she was talking to Okuu waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when Frozen Sunflowers lost, about how much punishment she could endure. And even disregarding that, regardless of how she feels about Tenshi, Iku could still be upset since it was her job to look after her (Or at least be sent to "retrieve" her).
"if you do fail to win, though, I can argue that "wrestling isn't about actual skill :V"
This is a far better example of arrogance. Saying that something or someone is great while also making some form of negative remark towards something else that's seen as inferior.
SpecterVonBaren said: Arrogant? She's prideful, confident, and boastful but I'd hardly call Tenshi, as she appears in this comic, arrogant.
she just claims to want to defeat Byakuren during her Furinkazan mode ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U158VC5u6kk ), styles on incompetent Shou (head gimmick), and now has attempted to do the same on Sakuya, by claiming to want to defeat her at what she does best. "Of course, that's not arrogance, that's likeableness!", you might say. She even gets to cry about Sakuya's ability, when it's Sakuya that should be complaining about Tenshi's absurd natural resistance.. which Sakuya has to some extent managed to use against herself.
SpecterVonBaren said: "if you do fail to win, though, I can argue that "wrestling isn't about actual skill :V"
This is a far better example of arrogance. Saying that something or someone is great while also making some form of negative remark towards something else that's seen as inferior.
it seems that you think that Tenshi has the full merit of her wins, and I think that it's not true (she's in my eyes, seemingly made to advance through the tournament through fan's favor, the latter which can be explained by how untechnical her style and play is -- a thing which many people seem to like, and I don't --, which makes her opponent's efforts at trying to advance in the tournament frustratingly useless, which in turn reinforce, again, in my view, the image of a Tenshi that can just soak up the damage she receives and still win no matter how hard her opponents try. At least Reimu, who also has a high defense, doesn't pretend to want to fight clean to save her face, and seems to play more thoughtfully -- which I like, if you've noticed by now :D). We won't change anyone's opinions, so, since both of us have exposed our views already, I'll leave the conversation as it is and do a strategic withdraw for now.
shadowbringer said: she just claims to want to defeat Byakuren during her Furinkazan mode ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U158VC5u6kk ), styles on incompetent Shou (head gimmick), and now has attempted to do the same on Sakuya, by claiming to want to defeat her at what she does best. "Of course, that's not arrogance, that's likeableness!", you might say.
Actually, it is. "I want to fight a strong opponent and beat them when they're at their best." IS a likable thing to say. Or are you saying "I want my opponent to be in a weakened state so I can pull and easy win and gain glory for no merit of my own." Is a likable thing to say? I don't understand your sentence about Shou. And I don't recall Tenshi saying she wants to beat Sakuya at her own game.
shadowbringer said:She even gets to cry about Sakuya's ability, when it's Sakuya that should be complaining about Tenshi's absurd natural resistance.. which Sakuya has to some extent managed to use against herself.
When was she ever complaining about Sakuya's ability? You're imagining problems that aren't there.
shadowbringer said:it seems that you think that Tenshi has the full merit of her wins, and I think that it's not true (she's in my eyes, seemingly made to advance through the tournament through fan's favor, the latter which can be explained by how untechnical her style and play is -- a thing which many people seem to like, and I don't --, which makes her opponent's efforts at trying to advance in the tournament frustratingly useless, which in turn reinforce, again, in my view, the image of a Tenshi that can just soak up the damage she receives and still win no matter how hard her opponents try. At least Reimu, who also has a high defense, doesn't pretend to want to fight clean to save her face, and seems to play more thoughtfully -- which I like, if you've noticed by now :D). We won't change anyone's opinions, so, since both of us have exposed our views already, I'll leave the conversation as it is and do a strategic withdraw for now.
......... Heavenly Sky have only had... one match before this... just one. You're claiming that there's a pattern of them winning through fan favoritism with one match as proof. Just because they're a fan favorite on Danbooru doesn't mean anything, unless you know Japanese and know what the people over there like? Because the only teams I've heard any talks about winning through fan favoritism is Team Moriya because of Sanae and Lost Servants because of the Sakuya/Remilia relationship. And those are because of what the Japanese fans like, not the Americans.
As for Heavenly Sky fighting clean. They have. When Tenshi got Shou to not exploit Okuu's weakness with holds, Heavenly Sky returned the favor by not exploiting Byakuren's time limit. Team's that played dirty are obvious, Ghost Rabbit Union used dirty tricks in an attempt to try to at least stand some sort of chance, and Hourai Master/Servant Combination exploited the emotional aspect of Mokou and Keine's relationship, while also having the ref in their pocket. What has Heavenly Sky done that's like that?
Your attempts to try to spin your favoritism as being the moral high ground was laughable.
Heavenly Sky vs Moriya would be interesting since both teams have chemistry with the audiance (readers). Lost Servant doesn't really outside of Sakuya's promise to meet Remila in the Finals.
Of course this also assumes that Red 75% will defeat the Immortals due to Reimu's abilities seemingly second to none when she goes all out (can destroy the mat faster than even the Oni or Flan). Also both of them are determined to win. Remilia because she want to win and Reimu because she wants the prize money.
The Immortals on the other hand are fangirls of the origin of the tournament, but absolutely hate each other. Though with there previous matches they have had story time. Their development would likely lead them to lose but somehow be better "friends" (in the sense that they know they will always be there for each other...to beat up).
Heavenly Sky is the fun team that gets along with each other and doesn't seems to have all that many issues with teamwork when it comes down to the wire.
Lost Servants is learning teamwork as Sakuya starts to be a team player rather than just trying to do things on her own. Suika also has things to learn as she's over-confident (or perhaps just seriously under-estimated Heavenly Sky as "fools").
Remilia has to learn to be a team player as she thinks she can win alone still...and Reimu....well she can win alone it seems...but needs to be held back (if she is actually unstable or if that was all a trick to get Marisa to back off.)
Moriya seems to have found its balance already as Sanae is a team player and Suwako has found her center again.
SpecterVonBaren said: Actually, it is. "I want to fight a strong opponent and beat them when they're at their best." IS a likable thing to say. Or are you saying "I want my opponent to be in a weakened state so I can pull and easy win and gain glory for no merit of my own." Is a likable thing to say?
first, if Tenshi can just beat Byakuren at her best (even if she has such an incompetent partner who's too morally restrained to be effective, a "war goddess" of all people), it's pointless for Byakuren to even try to participate. She even lost to a morally restrained Tenshi, who could've just shown true respect by using every help she can get and tire Byakuren out (like Nazrin tried to do against Reimu in GTT). It may be in Tenshi's personality to believe that this isn't respect, but her behavior (in character or not) isn't likable to me, and it is to you. Whatever, I'd rather not like to have someone who plays like that to win.
SpecterVonBaren said: I don't understand your sentence about Shou.
SpecterVonBaren said: ......... Heavenly Sky have only had... one match before this... just one. You're claiming that there's a pattern of them winning through fan favoritism with one match as proof. Just because they're a fan favorite on Danbooru doesn't mean anything, unless you know Japanese and know what the people over there like? Because the only teams I've heard any talks about winning through fan favoritism is Team Moriya because of Sanae and Lost Servants because of the Sakuya/Remilia relationship. And those are because of what the Japanese fans like, not the Americans.
when I said fan favoritism, I obviously didn't mean that fans directly effect the outcome of a match (unless they're in the story, and in that fight of Sanae vs Flandre), but meant that her reckless, morally self-restrained and strategy-less playstyle is seemingly made to appeal to so many people. It *is* frustrating to see someone like her defeat people who put more thought into their actions.
SpecterVonBaren said: As for Heavenly Sky fighting clean. They have. When Tenshi got Shou to not exploit Okuu's weakness with holds, Heavenly Sky returned the favor by not exploiting Byakuren's time limit. Team's that played dirty are obvious, Ghost Rabbit Union used dirty tricks in an attempt to try to at least stand some sort of chance, and Hourai Master/Servant Combination exploited the emotional aspect of Mokou and Keine's relationship, while also having the ref in their pocket. What has Heavenly Sky done that's like that?
by "fighting clean", you really mean "playing their own version of the game", instead of the real game that Reimu is seemingly aware of, at least partially (until she shows signs of the opposite). Read this for reference on why Tenshi's moral restraints (and Shou's, and those of many other actual people) are just handicaps, even if she's unaware of it: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html
After looking over everything I can only conclude that you hate honor and sportsmanship and believe that every dirty trick in the book should be used to beat someone even if it's morally questionable. So if one of the contestants were to get the drop on their opponents before the match and beat them to within an inch of their life and continued on with the match, that would be an okay thing to do? You're saying having Aya in your pocket to slow down the count is okay? You're saying that no one in this tournament should have any rules at all because that's limiting their ability to beat their opponent? What if someone bought off Aya to never count a pin in the match? The entire POINT of organized fighting like this is for people to NOT do everything they can to beat their opponent because that means potentially killing someone. Your article contradicts itself by saying someone should take any advantage to win and then talking about a character that shouldn't be used because it gave too much of an advantage. You're essentially advocating the war plan of the Mongols which is to lie and backstab everyone regardless of any kind of moral compass.
You misunderstand what I meant about the Shou thing, I meant I literally didn't understand the sentence you used to describe it.
SpecterVonBaren said: After looking over everything I can only conclude that you hate honor and sportsmanship and believe that every dirty trick in the book should be used to beat someone even if it's morally questionable. So if one of the contestants were to get the drop on their opponents before the match and beat them to within an inch of their life and continued on with the match, that would be an okay thing to do? You're saying having Aya in your pocket to slow down the count is okay? You're saying that no one in this tournament should have any rules at all because that's limiting their ability to beat their opponent? What if someone bought off Aya to never count a pin in the match? The entire POINT of organized fighting like this is for people to NOT do everything they can to beat their opponent because that means potentially killing someone.
looks like you haven't read this other article featuring the responses to the original article (it isn't even hard to find, from the original article's page) http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-2-mailbag.html , which covers tournament-legal behavior (including things such as beating the opponents before the match or killing the opponents)
In short, do whatever the *game* allows you to (not the things that are exterior to it), explore its depth rather than calling in-game tactics cheap instead of working around them -- people are often persuaded to stop doing the "cheap maneuvers" by those who're affected by them, but it works for said people, because they're not really focused on winning and using everything the game offers them (resources, mechanics), as opposed to expert players who will force the ones crying "cheap" to learn how to counter said cheapness, and thus making said cry to be no longer the least-effort option. If said cheapness is indeed undefeatable, then the game isn't deep enough, and becomes degenerated.
With that said, I hope that matches are decided on how well the characters play the game, above all, but.. that's not the apparent nature of pro-wrestling. I was just wishing that the game wasn't made degenerated by having strategic play being rewarded with defeat from non-strategic play.
SpecterVonBaren said: You're saying that no one in this tournament should have any rules at all because that's limiting their ability to beat their opponent?
moral, self-made rules that aren't actually part of the game, aren't the same as the game rules you've spoken of. There's much more room for creativity, clever play (clever use of resources and game rules, and vastness of viable options -- pressure, spacing, turtling, baiting.. -- to have fun deciding which to use) and mind games to be explored, than moral restraints would ever allow players to experience. Tenshi just seems to represent said morally-restrained playstyle, and receive sympathy of those who think like her.
SpecterVonBaren said: Your article contradicts itself by saying someone should take any advantage to win and then talking about a character that shouldn't be used because it gave too much of an advantage.
If said example (ST's Akuma) were to be allowed, he would inviabilize the rest of the cast, and everyone worth their salt would have to use him to have the highest chances of winning, which would *greatly* reduce the depth of the game. generally speaking, bans are extreme measures. The players picking Akuma (if he were to be allowed) aren't to be blamed, they're doing the correct measure.
in other news, while I'm writing this, I remind of how well Yuuka has played, even though she lost. She thought outside the box, compared to average players, though it wasn't really outside her fanon USC personality (with a bit of PC-98 canon sleeping terror theme).
Remember...Professional Wrestling in context of a specific Japanese manga series is the rule set Yukari is using. Whatever else you might have in mind about fighting, games, playing-to-win, and whatnot is immaterial within that context.
So leave it be and accept that the rules are those one would expect in Professional Wrestling and "Kinnikuman".
This of course includes that individuals and teams will have specific codes of conduct and their own personal honor. Things they will and will not do. One might consider that playing substandard or even set to fail, but that is how stories are told.
She got attacked from a great angle...The Swaying Scale...and is taken into a fall just like that!!Only from one attack...!!Urgh!!This is just outrageous!!And instead of Suika holding back Utsuho, it's the rever-...Tsk!Ahh!Wait! She broke loose!!That was a fierce strike for a cut in!!!Episode 961: Neither side will let the other side take this.From the Artist's Pixiv page.Well, every single one of them is worn out.There's no way......to tell who'll crumble first.Awawa......even if they're in a state of dizziness!!It's impossible to stop oni with power...