Resolution for a tag war in post #8102125

Posts are explicit.

I'm having an issue with tag warring on a set of posts I uploaded a bit ago so I'm tabling a discussion on the forum to try and get it resolved once and for all because people just won't agree about the application of tags and keep taking matters into their own hands.

Set in question: post #8102125 and its siblings

There are two sets of issues here, one of which was quasi-resolved in the comments section:

- Whether or not the male character has enough identification (physique, presence, artist commentary or circumstances) to be chartagged.
- If the interaction between Qingyi and Zhu Yuan (artist sized up the latter but not the former) should be considered age difference, onee-loli (yet without applying the loli tag) and now recently oppai loli.

I get notifications on these posts basically every week now over members and builders fighting over what tags should apply or not and it's getting ridiculous. I could turn off notifications for these posts but that still won't resolve the root issue of tag warring, so I think I need to officially table it in the forum for discussion, to have a record and to reach a resolution about what tags should and should not apply and why.

I personally have no stake in the matter besides having undone the Seth Lowell tag removal twice after being added by another builder because I felt the removal was incorrect but later conceded and upheld the removal, which that too didn't receive positive feedback. I also don't want to pretend like I know the exact circumstances for this post because I won't be able to defend a stance if I take one.

Damn, here I was hoping for another topic #25158-esque situation.

The tag history also suggests there is a smaller tagging war over the yuri tag on the post as well.

Something that isn't helping is how rigid people are applying the "Tag what you see" guideline.

If I've uploaded a set of images with Person X making love to Person Y, and one of the images is from the pov of Person X with only the penis visible, I'm not going to do a "Gee golly, I wonder who that person is?" and I will use outside knowledge to tag that post with person X.
This also applies to artist commentary imo.

The guideline currently is:

Rule of Thumb

Tag what you see, not what you know. In other words, only tag the visual and factual elements in the image. For example, images where the full moon is prominently depicted will have a full_moon tag. Ideally you should use an existing tag on Danbooru.
This means you should not tag what you know about a character. For example Remilia_Scarlet is supposed to be a vampire, but don't tag every picture depicting her with the vampire tag. Only use the vampire tag if the characteristics are clearly visible.

Some more clarification, or probably even a rewrite might be in order.

GreyOmega said:

The tag history also suggests there is a smaller tagging war over the yuri tag on the post as well.

That one is even funnier because that's not even slightly ambiguous unlike the other ones.

ANON_TOKYO said:

That one is even funnier because that's not even slightly ambiguous unlike the other ones.

It's likely that some only consider it yuri if it's the focus of the image or if only yuri sexual content is present.

Related to the post above, if an artist draws a female character having sex with a male character, which only shows his crotch and penis, but either the artist or the commissioner of said art states the name of the male character. Should we respect their opinion or keep the male character nameless?

It's probably nothing, but I find it interesting that every instance of a contested tag being removed Is by someone below Builder.

GabrielWB said:

Something that isn't helping is how rigid people are applying the "Tag what you see" guideline.

Some more clarification, or probably even a rewrite might be in order.

I would be apprehensive about any changes to that guideline that go beyond simply saying, "Sometimes there are exceptions."

The more you say, like giving examples (commentary, other images in a series, pixiv tags, ect.), the more "standard" you make it sound, inviting rules lawyers to treat exceptions as the norm and tag war and muck up the forums with arguments about how something that isn't yuri should be tagged yuri because the artist called it yuri. Which already sometimes happens but at least they can't point to our own rules when it does.

blindVigil said:

I would be apprehensive about any changes to that guideline that go beyond simply saying, "Sometimes there are exceptions."

The more you say, like giving examples (commentary, other images in a series, pixiv tags, ect.), the more "standard" you make it sound, inviting rules lawyers to treat exceptions as the norm and tag war and muck up the forums with arguments about how something that isn't yuri should be tagged yuri because the artist called it yuri. Which already sometimes happens but at least they can't point to our own rules when it does.

You're already expected to use a degree of common sense though. Granted, that can be difficult to find, but when present that should be used. That isn't really changing any guidelines, that's just kind of what you're told to do already.

I think that if the artist says which characters are in the picture, then we defer to that. "Whose hand is that?" is pretty much the only type of question that we should defer to the artist on, but I think if the commentary says "that's Seth's dick" then we should tag Seth. TWYS comes first and trumps artist intent, but outside-the-image information like artist commentary helps us fill in the blanks when the image is ambiguous.

With regard to onee-loli: I removed it as I was going through the edits of the person who added it, many of which were questionable. I don't think it's onee-loli because a) Qingyi clearly has visible medium_breasts, and b) she's canonically just a short adult, not a child in any way.

In the past, if an artist said a dick belonged to a specific character then we've always tagged that character. And it would be absurd to do otherwise: do you know better than the artist? They drew the pic, surely they know who's being depicted? The only case where it would make sense to go against this would be if the character looks nothing like who the artist claims they are, or if it's obviously a joke.

Let's be real, this kind of autistic back and forth only happens because someone doesn't want to see their waifu fucked by someone that's not them.

"Tag what you see" doesn't mean "Don't tag what is obviously happening just because your eyes literally can't see it".

CoreMack said:

With regard to onee-loli: I removed it as I was going through the edits of the person who added it, many of which were questionable. I don't think it's onee-loli because a) Qingyi clearly has visible medium_breasts, and b) she's canonically just a short adult, not a child in any way.

Canonicity isn't relevant, "loli" is not equivalent to "child." Only thing that matters is does one character look noticeably younger than the other character, and I think Qingyi absolutely does here.

blindVigil said:

Canonicity isn't relevant, "loli" is not equivalent to "child." Only thing that matters is does one character look noticeably younger than the other character, and I think Qingyi absolutely does here.

Her lower half being obscured in combination with her breasts makes her just look small, not young, to me.

ANON_TOKYO said:

Her lower half being obscured in combination with her breasts makes her just look small, not young, to me.

If you're talking about post #8102125, yes, but that's not the case in post #8102536 and on. The size disparity is very clear in those. She doesn't just look shorter, she looks younger.

blindVigil said:

If you're talking about post #8102125, yes, but that's not the case in post #8102536 and on. The size disparity is very clear in those. She doesn't just look shorter, she looks younger.

Ah yeah that's fair.

blindVigil said:

Canonicity isn't relevant, "loli" is not equivalent to "child."

Wow, thanks! I didn't know that!

Given that onee-loli is tagged independently from loli, it's not clear to me that there's no room for canon knowledge to influence it. When characters are canonically the same age, I'd probably hesitate to use it unless there's clear evidence that one has been aged down, lest the tag get wantonly applied to every couple with a height difference (see e.g. comments on post #8143954).

That said, I'll admit I never actually looked closely at the child posts here. I still don't think post #8102125 is onee-loli, Qingyi just looks like she's kneeling. But considering how much smaller and child-like she's drawn in post #8102536 and the other children, I do agree that they should be onee-loli.