Utility of certain FGO Swimsuit umbrella tags?

BUR #40776 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create implication gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(first_ascension)_(fate) -> gareth_(fate)
create implication gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(second_ascension)_(fate) -> gareth_(fate)
create implication gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(third_ascension)_(fate) -> gareth_(fate)
deprecate gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate)
mass update gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(*_ascension)_(fate) -> -gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate)

Y'all know the drill by now, even if none of you are saying anything in response other than sometimes hitting an upvote/downvote button. Skipping Lady Avalon because I'm scared.

BUR #40778 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

remove implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(first_ascension) -> utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)
create implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(first_ascension) -> utsumi_erice
remove implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(second_ascension) -> utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)
create implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(second_ascension) -> utsumi_erice
remove implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(third_ascension) -> utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)
create implication utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(third_ascension) -> utsumi_erice
deprecate utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)
mass update utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)_(*_ascension) -> -utsumi_erice_(swimsuit_avenger)

Skipping Ibuki for having a common throughline via her horns. Ericchi time - her third ascension isn't even exclusive to her swimsuit avenger servant form.

related: forum #318677

Skipping Wu Zetian for having a visually distinct pahfekt body. Still need to submit Skadi.

BUR #41045 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Ylimegirl said:

Still need to submit Skadi.

and then i didn't. Still not going to because it's lowkey a scary umbrella tag and probably warrants its own topic, which is also why I'm not touching Castoria Zerker right now. Skipping Suzuka Gozen for having the common throughline of a tan. Which brings us to Chloe. didn't realize her second ascension had the other prillya girls as cameos till i uploaded the image. tagging images helps you realize many minute details of a composition

BUR #41047 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

As previously foreshadowed earlier in the thread, Barg's turn. Skipping Melusine because her second and third ascensions share common horns.

BUR #41049 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

And rounding off 2023's batch of swimsuits with Baobhan Sith.

Not a fan of these changes. The umbrella tags help with tag gardening, specifically when trying to correct misstagged costumes.

For example, instead of just of putting "baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(third_ascension)_(fate)" and going through a pool of art limited to her swimsuit ascension looking for any mistagged art, now you either have to also - every other costume she has, or if you're a blue user thats limited to 2 tags, go through a pool of all her art to look for any mistagged art.

Also some characters like Wu Zetian and Melusine keeping their umbrella tags just makes for annoying inconsistencies between characters.

HeyaHowYaDoin said:

For example, instead of just of putting "baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(third_ascension)_(fate)" and going through a pool of art limited to her swimsuit ascension looking for any mistagged art, now you either have to also - every other costume she has, or if you're a blue user thats limited to 2 tags, go through a pool of all her art to look for any mistagged art.

Which mistags are attempting to be identified with baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(third_ascension)_(fate)? Genuinely curious, especially since it's functionally almost identical to baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(first_ascension)_(fate) OR baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(second_ascension)_(fate). Under the current system if I were looking for mistags, I'd pick a specific costume tag and check each post. If I were looking for missing subtags, I'd do baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(*)_(fate) (or more broadly speaking, baobhan_sith_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(*)_(fate)).

Also some characters like Wu Zetian and Melusine keeping their umbrella tags just makes for annoying inconsistencies between characters.

Melusine is more debatable my basic metric more or less boils down to "if this character is drawn nude (as is very common for FGO gals) can they be distinguished from their normal version? if you can tell its not their base form, is it still difficult to tell which ascension it is?" but dismantling one like Wu Zetian's would be stupid because that is an entirely different looking aged up character that could easily be portrayed without any of the specific costumes from her ascensions. If you wanna talk inconsistency, complain about Koyanskaya not having umbrella tags for her Assassin and Foreigner versions.

Ylimegirl said:

Genuinely curious, especially since it's functionally almost identical to baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(first_ascension)_(fate) OR baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(second_ascension)_(fate).

This search wouldn't show art that's not tagged with either, like if someone tagged baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) but didn't tag which ascension specifically.

If I were looking for missing subtags, I'd do baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(swimsuit_pretender)_(*)_(fate) (or more broadly speaking, baobhan_sith_(fate) -baobhan_sith_(*)_(fate)).

You just listed a good reason why the umbrella tag should be kept. Searching gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate) -gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(*)_(fate) shows post #6028758, which should be tagged gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(first_ascension)_(fate), but is only tagged with her umbrella tag. Removing the umbrella tag would make it so that you'd have to search gareth_(fate) -gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(*)_(fate) and search through much more art in order to find that mistake.

If you wanna talk inconsistency, complain about Koyanskaya not having umbrella tags for her Assassin and Foreigner versions.

Maybe I will, once this whole mess gets sorted out. Her light and dark versions are shown to be separate characters in game that have been shown existing at the same time. Would be a whole lot easier to make that consistent with everything else by just adding two umbrella tags rather than removing the umbrella tags of several characters and making things even more inconsistent

BUR #41281 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

remove implication mysterious_executor_c.i.e.l_(fate) -> c.i.e.l_(fate)
create implication mysterious_executor_c.i.e.l_(fate) -> ciel_(tsukihime)
remove implication ciel-sensei_(fate) -> c.i.e.l_(fate)
create implication ciel-sensei_(fate) -> ciel_(tsukihime)
remove implication star_ciel_(fate) -> c.i.e.l_(fate)
create implication star_ciel_(fate) -> ciel_(tsukihime)
deprecate c.i.e.l_(fate)

Alright, lets try this one. Happy 2024, final batch of swimsuit servants. No real difference between Remake Ciel and C.I.E.L aside from costumes.

Now that we're in 2024, I will note that we don't have an umbrella tag for BB Dubai and her ascensions aside from the base BB tag (with them instead being split up into BB Dubai, BB Cosmo, and secret third thing), for what it's worth precedent-wise.

BUR #41282 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create alias c.i.e.l_(first_ascension)_(fate) -> mysterious_executor_c.i.e.l_(fate)
create alias c.i.e.l_(second_ascension)_(fate) -> ciel-sensei_(fate)
create alias c.i.e.l_(third_ascension)_(fate) -> star_ciel_(fate)

While we're here, the ascension names for this one are kinda... stupid? The individual ascension names make more sense in differentiating them. Less parentheticals, too.

BUR #41300 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Dobrynya time.

BUR #41305 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

Xu Fu's time.

BUR #41306 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

MoonCancer Tenochtitlan. Arguably all of these ascensions could be implicated to her base third ascension since they share the same hairstyle (this would be lowkey stupid though). Other than that, three distinct outfits.

That should be it, since I'm not touching Heroine XX Alter for the same reason I didn't touch Heroine XX, and we're a few months too early for the summer 2025 event. No more BURs for voting on, just yapping and debating.

The bulk update request #39989 (forum #347368) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

HeyaHowYaDoin said:

You just listed a good reason why the umbrella tag should be kept. Searching gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(fate) -gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(*)_(fate) shows post #6028758, which should be tagged gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(first_ascension)_(fate), but is only tagged with her umbrella tag. Removing the umbrella tag would make it so that you'd have to search gareth_(fate) -gareth_(swimsuit_saber)_(*)_(fate) and search through much more art in order to find that mistake.

I would argue that these lazy mis(sing )tags would happen less often if the umbrella tags didn't exist. A user would have to pick one (the lack of specificity probably comes from the translated tags feature) or none at all, and the mistags can easily just be searched for and the missing tags can be found with gareth_(fate) -gareth_(*)_(fate), same as any other missing costume tags.

The bulk update request #39987 (forum #347366) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #39988 (forum #347367) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #39990 (forum #347369) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

The bulk update request #40078 (forum #347760) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

BUR #41370 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

@Ylimegirl these are going to need deprecation wikis now, and the various posts remaining here need to be moved to the correct subtags, and their appearances should be migrated to the individual costume tags and main tags if they haven't already. I'm going to do them a few at a time because I need to inspect them all in detail.

You can (and should) add the missing tags in advance, for example: nitocris_(swimsuit_assassin)_(fate) -nitocris_(swimsuit_assassin)_(*)_(fate) or ibaraki_douji_(swimsuit_lancer)_(fate) -ibaraki_douji_(swimsuit_lancer)_(*)_(fate). If there's a lot of results in these tags that's a sign that it's not a great idea.