I want to figure out what the issue here is and I want to hear from all sides.
People are complaining to me about users who upload posts without any tags. I think this is a legitimate complaint. But I want to know why exactly it's an issue. As everyone probably knows, if you're the second person to upload a post, your tag changes get merged. So the only disadvantage with the current system is that even if the second uploader adds more tags, he won't get credit for the post because someone uploaded it first with "tagme", or some minimal set of tags.
Is this a legitimate problem? Maybe we need a system that changes the uploader to whoever adds a minimal set of tags.
It kind of bugs me when someone uploads an image with one character with nothing or just artist with the intention of tagging it later because it's stupidly trivial to do character/copy/artist and hey if the first person who uploaded it missed one of those three tags congratulations you contributed anyways!
Though I have to ask if they are complaining about people who are a legitimate problem (ie: user:spiderfan)
My only problem with it is if something good gets posted with no tags, and no one remedies that, and nobody subsequently tries to upload that same image, then it quickly gets buried and is more or less unretrievable without sifting through thousands of posts.
Fortunately many people tag things when they find things that they like even if they aren't the uploader (I know I do). I think it's somewhat of a problem, but I don't really know of any good way to systematically fix it. Lazy taggers will always exist.
As far as credit goes, I really don't think that is too much of a concern.
I can only see this helping users that upload the same image at the same time. Maybe if there was a time limit on it. That way someone can't take credit for images that were uploaded years ago by simply re-upping it with a few extra tags.
I don't see it as a big problem, but it is a possible annoyance. It may be a problem for people that are big on post counts, I guess. Where it would be a problem for me is if the user didn't go back and properly tag the image in a decent amount of time, because, like Shinjidude should, it may get lost in the shuffle. I don't particularly like the "changing the uploader" idea, but I don't have a good way to incentivize this behavior off the top of my head.
There is also a blacklist issue here, though. Tagless or one-tag uploads subvert non-ratings-based blacklists, unless you blacklist tagme.
Is it feasible to require a minimum number of existing tags (like two) before an image can be uploaded?
It's more of a side effect and uploaders can't be blamed when they don't know the artists, but comparing between danbooru/source using iqdb when looking for potential untagged artists is also very time consuming. Same thing with find similar between existing posts, notably when dupe detection on upload failed because of a slight difference.
There has been a request lately about allowing iqdb to store multiple urls and run all comparisons in a row, which would definitely be helpful in that way. Guess it's not gonna happen but if find similar was able to run comparisons for all posts by a given artist that'd be awesome for all those poor orphans.
EDIT:
Log said: ...What? If you're responding to someone not immediately above you and not the OP you should quote them.
Shinjidude mentionned the issue of buried unretrievable posts but I'm not really replying to his point here. Granted it's a little off-topic but it's the same cause of trouble regarding upload of close duplicates (then regarding poorly tagged posts in general after I drifted).
albert said: Is this a legitimate problem? Maybe we need a system that changes the uploader to whoever adds a minimal set of tags.
What? No, thats stupid.
Anyway, I'm firmly of the opinion that people need to tag their own uploads. I know for some reason certain people like to upload a bunch of images in a row and then go back and tag them, and within reason, I guess thats ok. And the more and better uploads they have, the more likely I am to give them a pass, but for the average member, I fully expect them to do a decent tagging job.
If an image isn't squarely within my personal interests, or exceptionally good, I'm perfectly willing to pass over approving it if it isn't properly tagged.
It just became an excuse to be lazy when it shouldn't.
I was called out on this behavior the last summer when I did it on a spree. Ok, fair! In the end, I did concede and I stopped it; but I would have appreciated it if some of the posters as guilty of it did take note of that complain I received from fellow posters and, you know, tone it down. Especially when the same person used to tell me that "it's not that hard to put at least five tag before uploading." And yet can't practice what he preaches.
The artist is a problem? Artist request is right here, same for the character. But when the artist and the characters are known? It's either laziness or some kind of e-peen exhibition. It gets really jarring with very good or famous artists where basically "tagme" only upload have become something like a "NOFUCKYOU" option to anchor one's claim and to deny newcomers as well as fellow contributors a chance to upload that artist, or that picture.
It's annoying and, in my opinion, serve no other purpose than e-ego stroking and annoy fellow posters.
Fencedude said: And the more and better uploads they have, the more likely I am to give them a pass, but for the average member, I fully expect them to do a decent tagging job.
I hope uploaders don't take that for granted because that means a given post has better chances to get properly tagged when uploaded by a member (and sadly it's probably true).
In some twisted way, I consider it okay that "greedy" contributors concentrate on adding (hopefully good) content, providing a job for us tag gardeners who are not so good with online sources. But balance is hard to maintain there, and it gets hopelessly out of hand if the contributors leave even artist/character/copyright tags out.
Herrmobel said: I was called out on this behavior the last summer when I did it on a spree. Ok, fair! In the end, I did concede and I stopped it; but I would have appreciated it if some of the posters as guilty of it did take note of that complain I received from fellow posters and, you know, tone it down. Especially when the same person used to tell me that "it's not that hard to put at least five tag before uploading." And yet can't practice what he preaches.
Gonna be 100% with you, I do the upload artist only thing, tag later. I didn't know it pissed people off and now I know that you've been called out on it I'll stop doing it myself. Maybe if people Dmailed the person first we won't have to call Albert, Jxh or "Japanese-character-dude-who-I-can't-spell-his-name-but-is-a-staff-member" down from on high when it can be handled without mod intervention.
It's either laziness or some kind of e-peen exhibition. It gets really jarring with very good or famous artists where basically "tagme" only upload have become something like a "NOFUCKYOU" option to anchor one's claim and to deny newcomers as well as fellow contributors a chance to upload that artist, or that picture.
It's annoying and, in my opinion, serve no other purpose than e-ego stroking and annoy fellow posters.
Gonna be 200% with you, I do it for the e-peen. That should be natural since everyone here is striving to contribute in the best ways possible. So I'd rather be associated with uploading simosi than generic_dude_from_pixiv_#687935. But if its pissing people off and even worse, leading to poor tagging then the practice should be frowned upon.
I don't think we need a minimal tag system yet. We've called the problem out into the open so we should wait and watch the situation, if the problem continues even after this then make the necessary changes but I'm sure uploaders will see this thread and take it easy. I know I will.
Huh, really? I'd derive significantly more e-peen from digging up 20 images from a good Pixiv artist that wasn't on Danbooru yet and having them each get 20 favorites than I would from lucking into out-F5ing Mr GT to upload one simosi drawing and having it get 400 favorites. Takes all sorts, I guess.
I don't think we need a minimal tag system yet. We've called the problem out into the open so we should wait and watch the situation, if the problem continues even after this then make the necessary changes but I'm sure uploaders will see this thread and take it easy. I know I will.
Well, I don't have a ready solution either.
But this problem had been going on since months. It have become noticeably (sp?) worse since last summer especially during what I'd call the Pixiv Rush Hour that occurs at 0:00-2:00 in Japan, 15:00-17:00 in GMT, and 10:00-12:00 in east coast.
When it comes, it becomes jarring. You see a pic and YOU PRAY that it makes it. And you PRAY HARDER that you don't get beaten to it. And you PRAY THE HARDEST that you don't get beaten because some guy decided to upload it and not even make the effort to tag it before uploading, and the single "tagme" you can see when you check the tag history is very much telling.
Then you see other people doing it, even the newcomers, because it seems that if those guys can get away with such poor uploading habits, people will reason that they can do it too. The issue is also ignored because almost everyone had been guilty of this at some point (I said almost because there are exceptions), but you know it had been said that "silence is approval", when we should not approve this kind of behavior.
And as for the e-peen, yes I admit I would not mind uploading some more by ideolo, sayori or colonel_aki. But when some guy beat me to it through the power of "tagme", either the guy is desperate, either he refuses to play fair game with everyone else. I will just remind that there is something called karma and it will come bite one in the ass.
PS: I am not even the best example for thorough tagging, you look at Mysterio for that. But I sure try my best to tag before upload so I don't look like a jerk like I probably did back in the last summer.
Herrmobel said: But this problem had been going on since months. It have become noticeably (sp?) worse since last summer especially during what I'd call the Pixiv Rush Hour that occurs at 0:00-2:00 in Japan, 15:00-17:00 in GMT, and 10:00-12:00 in east coast.
Honestly instead of bumping into each other like that for e-peen contests and collective waste of time couldn't you just take turns with that so you could use the time you don't spend racing on pixiv to retag your own uploads? Please.
I don't get it. If there are ten other people who you know would upload it if you didn't, then it can't be much of a rare find. In other words, the position of being "the one who uploaded it" isn't worth much, unless you're in a race go get the most uploaded posts, which would be stupid.
Soljashy said: the position of being "the one who uploaded it" isn't worth much, unless you're in a race go get the most uploaded posts, which would be stupid.
Well, for some people it became a matter of capital importance that they resort to the upload with no tag method.
It's kind of hard to say "upload with no tags" is even a problem so long as the uploader immediately and thoroughly tags the image immediately after it is up. I've occasionally used this method myself for detailed images where I'd like to be able to see the full image as I tag.
The only problem I can see is where the uploader uploads with no tags and doesn't thereafter take care of tagging it.
I can understand why some people might be frustrated if 10 people are trying to upload the same image at the same time and they are desperate to get their name on the post, but really "post and then tag" is no worse for Danbooru than "tag while posting". Only "post and not tag at all" is really bad.
