Bridget (GG Strive) gender

blindVigil said:

Multiple people have derailed it by repeatedly posting unsourced misinformation and insisting people look up things they haven't provided any proof of

And you're the one person in this thread who's actually saying transphobic things, repeatedly. FYI, you can't just disagree with the definition of a term when everyone but you uses it that way. Danbooru didn't decide on their own what trans girl and trans boy means, trans people did.

Ah never mind it seems you are the one that are acting like someone on twitter with the name calling and insults gave ya the benefit of doubt but looks like that was misplaced

blindVigil said:

And you're the one person in this thread who's actually saying transphobic things, repeatedly.

I'm not saying "transphobic things". Nothing I've said is hateful.
All I want is to continue tagging boys as boys, including boys who are transgender girls, such as Bridget (entirely ignoring the argument of whether it's actually true).
If you're just going to resort to accusations of -isms this is pointless.

I have went back and updated my reply with the 4chan post, so that anyone thumbing through the thread won't be confused. I also included videos of both the JP and EN audio for all fights.

The only time "I'm a girl" comes up is in one specific line in one specific non-canon bad ending. Literally all other mention that Bridget makes to his gender is that he's a man. This includes literally all other official media Bridget has ever been in. The good/complete/expert/whatever ending doesn't mention gender at all and is more about him regaining his confidence.

Sadly, I suspect if someone gets them to comment the JP dev's response will be something akin to "Bridget is Bridget." But having typed that out, I think that's a pretty good stance to take on the whole thing.

KiTA said:

But Domanus has a good point, as some people have pointed out on twitter the Japanese aren't confused about this at all and find the idea that he's trans to be absurd. So what are they seeing that we don't?

Nothing. JP Pixiv has added comments about Bridget identifying as a girl, and you can see people yelling at the devs for being politically correct Americans on the NicoNicoPedia comments, for instance.

KiTA said:

I have went back and updated my reply with the 4chan post, so that anyone thumbing through the thread won't be confused. I also included videos of both the JP and EN audio for all fights.

The only time "I'm a girl" comes up is in one specific line in one specific non-canon bad ending. Literally all other mention that Bridget makes to his gender is that he's a man. This includes literally all other official media Bridget has ever been in. The good/complete/expert/whatever ending doesn't mention gender at all and is more about him regaining his confidence.

Sadly, I suspect if someone gets them to comment the JP dev's response will be something akin to "Bridget is Bridget." But having typed that out, I think that's a pretty good stance to take on the whole thing.

As others have mentioned, the ending is not a "bad ending" and is widely treated as canon. Bridget goes from calling herself a boy to calling herself a girl in the Japanese script. Bridget was, of course, written as a boy in every prior installment of the series.

feline_lump said:

No, there is not a sufficient general tag to search for all transgender characters, or indeed any specific tag to search for them. They fall through the cracks in a bunch of other tags.

A little late on the reply, but here it goes.
I admit I am skeptical about reworking the transgender tag for this purpose, having the previous attempt in mind.

However, for users that are serious about reworking the transgender tag and believe it's a good idea, then it's about time this discussion becomes practical, if not this won't go nowhere. It's been said too many times that "we need transgender tag for transgender characters", but it's not been said HOW to do this. There needs to be some plan for that. How the wiki would look like? What will be the rules for the tag? Which characters would be tagged like this? And also, it's important to think and discuss about scenarios that could be problematic for the tag, this is the only way we know for sure that a 'new' tag will work appropriately.

Now about the Bridget thing, I don't think Bridged would count as a transgender yet. It's simply not unanimous that Bridget is a transgirl. There's only one ending where the character state he's a girl, and there are more moments where he states to be a boy. Other endings are way more ambiguous on their meaning, it could be more about Bridget finding his true self and happiness in life, as his bio even mention that he doesn't have a purpose in life. Unless Bridget coming out as a transgirl is actually solidified as a character trait and brought up again in a future scenario or story in the game, I wouldn't count as a transgirl yet.

mongirlfan said:

A little late on the reply, but here it goes.
I admit I am skeptical about reworking the transgender tag for this purpose, having the previous attempt in mind.

However, for users that are serious about reworking the transgender tag and believe it's a good idea, then it's about time this discussion becomes practical, if not this won't go nowhere. It's been said too many times that "we need transgender tag for transgender characters", but it's not been said HOW to do this. There needs to be some plan for that. How the wiki would look like? What will be the rules for the tag? Which characters would be tagged like this? And also, it's important to think and discuss about scenarios that could be problematic for the tag, this is the only way we know for sure that a 'new' tag will work appropriately.

Now about the Bridget thing, I don't think Bridged would count as a transgender yet. It's simply not unanimous that Bridget is a transgirl. There's only one ending where the character state he's a girl, and there are more moments where he states to be a boy. Other endings are way more ambiguous on their meaning, it could be more about Bridget finding his true self and happiness in life, as his bio even mention that he doesn't have a purpose in life. Unless Bridget coming out as a transgirl is actually solidified as a character trait and brought up again in a future scenario or story in the game, I wouldn't count as a transgirl yet.

This seems like the most appropriate stance. There's literally only one line in a non-canon bad end / the non-perfect hard mode end / whatever that has him say "because I'm a girl." Literally every other time in every other instance of this character in all media, including throughout all of Strive other than this one line, he calls himself a boy. He corrects Goldlewis in chapter 1, he apparently says something about being a boy when you fight Testament, et cetera.

KiTA said:

This seems like the most appropriate stance. There's literally only one line in a non-canon bad end / the non-perfect hard mode end / whatever that has him say "because I'm a girl." Literally every other time in every other instance of this character in all media, including throughout all of Strive other than this one line, he calls himself a boy. He corrects Goldlewis in chapter 1, he apparently says something about being a boy when you fight Testament, et cetera.

Oh my god, how much longer are you going to willfully ignore that that ending is just as canon as the others? It's an ending, it doesn't matter what she said in Chapter one.

At this point this thread is going nowhere, better to just wait for an admin decision on the matter.

If we want to tag transgender on Bridget posts, I guess that's fine. It doesn't hurt anything, but it doesn't really solve the problem either.

We have three options:

• Tag Bridget as a girl always.
• Tag Bridget as a boy always.
• Tag Bridget as either a girl or a boy, depending on whether they pass as a girl.

The first option quickly runs into problems. If Bridget is a girl, then should we remove the otoko no ko tag? If they kiss a girl, is that yuri? If they give oral to a guy, is that hetero instead of yaoi? If they're topless, are they a topless flat chested girl or a topless male? If they have abs, are they a muscular female or a toned male? If they masturbate, are they engaging in female masturbation or male masturbation? Do they have female orgasms or male orgasms? Do they have female pubic hair or male pubic hair? And on and on.

I expect most users would want to continue treating Bridget as a boy for most of these purposes. Which rules out the first option. And which gets us dragged for being transphobic for not treating Bridget as fully female. But we can't please everyone, and like it or not, the tagging system and the English language both enforce a gender binary that's very difficult to get around.

As for options 2 and 3, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I will say though, for all the arguing and edit warring that's been going on, the fact that nobody's rushing to tag Bridget as a girl in things like post #5575041 or post #5575946 (NSFW) even when she could arguably pass is very telling to me.

As far as canon goes, the whole thing is beside the point to me. Let's just assume for a moment canon is true and Bridget is unequivocally trans and figure out where to go from there.

Off topic-ish, but not really. For pages explicitly showing that she is transgender (such as post #5585188 and post #5584067), I believe the 1girl tag should apply. The artist clearly has intent in these images that she is a girl in these.

sadodere said:

Off topic-ish, but not really. For pages explicitly showing that she is transgender (such as post #5585188 and post #5584067), I believe the 1girl tag should apply. The artist clearly has intent in these images that she is a girl in these.

Please don't edit war until a decision has been made on the subject.

evazion said:

If we want to tag transgender on Bridget posts, I guess that's fine. It doesn't hurt anything, but it doesn't really solve the problem either.

We have three options:

• Tag Bridget as a girl always.
• Tag Bridget as a boy always.
• Tag Bridget as either a girl or a boy, depending on whether they pass as a girl.

The first option quickly runs into problems. If Bridget is a girl, then should we remove the otoko no ko tag? If they kiss a girl, is that yuri? If they give oral to a guy, is that hetero instead of yaoi? If they're topless, are they a topless flat chested girl or a topless male? If they have abs, are they a muscular female or a toned male? If they masturbate, are they engaging in female masturbation or male masturbation? Do they have female orgasms or male orgasms? Do they have female pubic hair or male pubic hair? And on and on.

I expect most users would want to continue treating Bridget as a boy for most of these purposes. Which rules out the first option. And which gets us dragged for being transphobic for not treating Bridget as fully female. But we can't please everyone, and like it or not, the tagging system and the English language both enforce a gender binary that's very difficult to get around.

As for options 2 and 3, I don't have a strong opinion either way. I will say though, for all the arguing and edit warring that's been going on, the fact that nobody's rushing to tag Bridget as a girl in things like post #5575041 or post #5575946 (NSFW) even when she could arguably pass is very telling to me.

As far as canon goes, the whole thing is beside the point to me. Let's just assume for a moment canon is true and Bridget is unequivocally trans and figure out where to go from there.

I believe the third option would be best. We could tag Bridget as a girl on every post aside from the ones clearly showing a penis or bulge on her or something; those ones can probably be tagged with both 1boy transgender or something.

But I will say, the English language has bypasses for the gender binary. The tagging system doesn't, presumably out of fear of angering American right-winged users or something, but that could easily be changed. The last option may not be the most favorable, but it would act as a happy medium of sorts.

Unbreakable said:

Please don't edit war until a decision has been made on the subject.

Again, the artist clearly has the intent that shes a girl there. If you want, I can even add the "genderswap" tag - which shouldn't apply to this anyways. And I believe the images were already posted under 1girl, but someone keeps getting mad and changing it back.

sadodere said:

Again, the artist clearly has the intent that shes a girl there. If you want, I can even add the "genderswap" tag - which shouldn't apply to this anyways. And I believe the images were already posted under 1girl, but someone keeps getting mad and changing it back.

And one of those users is an admin, which should say something.

Unbreakable said:

And one of those users is an admin, which should say something.

I don't stare at edit histories all day, lol. Again, stop changing the topic back to me. This is a thread about how Bridget should be tagged, not me.

My suggestion is this, because I think it satisfies the most people, without any sort of mangling of already existing tags. I'm also aware that's probably being too optimistic.

Go with option 2, tag Bridget as a boy by default just as we were doing before. Some people are gonna be pissed, but option 1 would just piss off a different group, so it's a lost cause trying to please everyone. Bridget is still biologically male, and you've already laid out all the problems with changing how we tag her. If a future canon story arc reveals she's actually transitioned to fully female by some means, then we can have another debate on what to do with that when the time comes.

Option 3 seems like a much worse idea to me than it would seem at first glance. It gives too much room for subjectivity and would probably just essentially be option 1 except when her dick is out, and possibly even then, too.

Tagging her only with transgender doesn't really do anything to aid searches, and imo hardly does anything where the blacklist is concerned, since you'd be blacklisting non-visible information that wouldn't even matter to you if you weren't told about it. All it really does is appease the people that demand her trans nature be acknowledged (while also angering the people that demand it be denied). But at least it gives a user more to work with on this subject than exists currently.

If we were actually interested in making trans characters searchable, transgender + 1girl/1boy wouldn't work, because a trans person could look like anything, and it would include false positives and negatives because of other characters in the picture. Solo is an option of course, and complex searches might get decent results, but Members can't use either of these, and at a certain point it just becomes unreasonable even for higher level users.

For this reason, I again suggest something like trans girl and trans boy tags. They don't need to be "counter" tags, trans characters aren't that common. Just those by themselves would probably work in most situations. These tags would allow you to find trans characters based on how they identify, which the current gender count tags don't do, and can be paired with the gender tags to narrow the search to specific combinations of identity and physical appearance.

Yes, this is going to be canon tagging 99% of the time. Otoko no ko already usually is, and TWYS already takes a back seat when tagging characters like Bridget, because we all know she looks like a girl, and always has, but we've always tagged her canon biological sex unless it was shown otherwise.

sadodere said:

Off topic-ish, but not really. For pages explicitly showing that she is transgender (such as post #5585188 and post #5584067), I believe the 1girl tag should apply. The artist clearly has intent in these images that she is a girl in these.

Transgender people don't just magically become the opposite sex just by existing in tandem with the transgender flag. Artists acknowledging that she's transgender by including the flag in the image doesn't mean they've drawn her as a girl; it means they acknowledge that she's transgender. Unless they outright say she's physically a girl in the art, we're not in any position to assume that she is, with or without the transgender flag being depicted.

blindVigil said:

My suggestion is this, because I think it satisfies the most people, without any sort of mangling of already existing tags. I'm also aware that's probably being too optimistic.

Go with option 2, tag Bridget as a boy by default just as we were doing before. Some people are gonna be pissed, but option 1 would just piss off a different group, so it's a lost cause trying to please everyone. Bridget is still biologically male, and you've already laid out all the problems with changing how we tag her. If a future canon story arc reveals she's actually transitioned to fully female by some means, then we can have another debate on what to do with that when the time comes.

Option 3 seems like a much worse idea to me than it would seem at first glance. It gives too much room for subjectivity and would probably just essentially be option 1 except when her dick is out, and possibly even then, too.

Tagging her only with transgender doesn't really do anything to aid searches, and imo hardly does anything where the blacklist is concerned, since you'd be blacklisting non-visible information that wouldn't even matter to you if you weren't told about it. All it really does is appease the people that demand her trans nature be acknowledged (while also angering the people that demand it be denied). But at least it gives a user more to work with on this subject than exists currently.

If we were actually interested in making trans characters searchable, transgender + 1girl/1boy wouldn't work, because a trans person could look like anything, and it would include false positives and negatives because of other characters in the picture. Solo is an option of course, and complex searches might get decent results, but Members can't use either of these, and at a certain point it just becomes unreasonable even for higher level users.

For this reason, I again suggest something like trans girl and trans boy tags. They don't need to be "counter" tags, trans characters aren't that common. Just those by themselves would probably work in most situations. These tags would allow you to find trans characters based on how they identify, which the current gender count tags don't do, and can be paired with the gender tags to narrow the search to specific combinations of identity and physical appearance.

Yes, this is going to be canon tagging 99% of the time. Otoko no ko already usually is, and TWYS already takes a back seat when tagging characters like Bridget, because we all know she looks like a girl, and always has, but we've always tagged her canon biological sex unless it was shown otherwise.

+1

blindVigil said:

My suggestion is this, because I think it satisfies the most people, without any sort of mangling of already existing tags. I'm also aware that's probably being too optimistic.

Go with option 2, tag Bridget as a boy by default just as we were doing before. Some people are gonna be pissed, but option 1 would just piss off a different group, so it's a lost cause trying to please everyone. Bridget is still biologically male, and you've already laid out all the problems with changing how we tag her. If a future canon story arc reveals she's actually transitioned to fully female by some means, then we can have another debate on what to do with that when the time comes.

Option 3 seems like a much worse idea to me than it would seem at first glance. It gives too much room for subjectivity and would probably just essentially be option 1 except when her dick is out, and possibly even then, too.

Tagging her only with transgender doesn't really do anything to aid searches, and imo hardly does anything where the blacklist is concerned, since you'd be blacklisting non-visible information that wouldn't even matter to you if you weren't told about it. All it really does is appease the people that demand her trans nature be acknowledged (while also angering the people that demand it be denied). But at least it gives a user more to work with on this subject than exists currently.

If we were actually interested in making trans characters searchable, transgender + 1girl/1boy wouldn't work, because a trans person could look like anything, and it would include false positives and negatives because of other characters in the picture. Solo is an option of course, and complex searches might get decent results, but Members can't use either of these, and at a certain point it just becomes unreasonable even for higher level users.

For this reason, I again suggest something like trans girl and trans boy tags. They don't need to be "counter" tags, trans characters aren't that common. Just those by themselves would probably work in most situations. These tags would allow you to find trans characters based on how they identify, which the current gender count tags don't do, and can be paired with the gender tags to narrow the search to specific combinations of identity and physical appearance.

Yes, this is going to be canon tagging 99% of the time. Otoko no ko already usually is, and TWYS already takes a back seat when tagging characters like Bridget, because we all know she looks like a girl, and always has, but we've always tagged her canon biological sex unless it was shown otherwise.

I suppose this could work, although I'm not too happy about it either. Thanks for also taking Members into account with this, by the way.

But wouldn't that mean we should also have a nonbinary tag for canonly nonbinary characters and all that? The 1other tag can only help so far when it comes to that.

Biological sex shouldn't really matter in most images that aren't explicit, though. If people complain about Bridget having the 1girl tag for something not even showing any indication of bio. sex, and she already appears so feminine, who would be at fault there? This would require canon tagging, but... I will also point out that her actually being born a boy could also be considered canon tagging. Had I not had any previous information on Bridget, I'd take a look at her and think she's a girl. Her name doesn't help at all in that regard, either.

blindVigil said:

My suggestion is this, because I think it satisfies the most people, without any sort of mangling of already existing tags. I'm also aware that's probably being too optimistic.

Go with option 2, tag Bridget as a boy by default just as we were doing before. Some people are gonna be pissed, but option 1 would just piss off a different group, so it's a lost cause trying to please everyone. Bridget is still biologically male, and you've already laid out all the problems with changing how we tag her. If a future canon story arc reveals she's actually transitioned to fully female by some means, then we can have another debate on what to do with that when the time comes.

Option 3 seems like a much worse idea to me than it would seem at first glance. It gives too much room for subjectivity and would probably just essentially be option 1 except when her dick is out, and possibly even then, too.

Tagging her only with transgender doesn't really do anything to aid searches, and imo hardly does anything where the blacklist is concerned, since you'd be blacklisting non-visible information that wouldn't even matter to you if you weren't told about it. All it really does is appease the people that demand her trans nature be acknowledged (while also angering the people that demand it be denied). But at least it gives a user more to work with on this subject than exists currently.

If we were actually interested in making trans characters searchable, transgender + 1girl/1boy wouldn't work, because a trans person could look like anything, and it would include false positives and negatives because of other characters in the picture. Solo is an option of course, and complex searches might get decent results, but Members can't use either of these, and at a certain point it just becomes unreasonable even for higher level users.

For this reason, I again suggest something like trans girl and trans boy tags. They don't need to be "counter" tags, trans characters aren't that common. Just those by themselves would probably work in most situations. These tags would allow you to find trans characters based on how they identify, which the current gender count tags don't do, and can be paired with the gender tags to narrow the search to specific combinations of identity and physical appearance.

Yes, this is going to be canon tagging 99% of the time. Otoko no ko already usually is, and TWYS already takes a back seat when tagging characters like Bridget, because we all know she looks like a girl, and always has, but we've always tagged her canon biological sex unless it was shown otherwise.

Seems like a reasonable approach to me, going for option 2.

Now, the Trans Girl and Trans Boy tags could work too. I would advice for it to be made very carefully, the ideal would be listing the characters that canonically are trans and would get tagged as such. This approach would be more organized and would avoid edit wars as well. I thought this based on the previous attempt to rework the transgender tag, as per topic #17489.