otoko no ko -> trap

BUR #40541 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create alias otoko_no_ko -> trap

Controversial BUR spurred on by forum #349350 and the realization that this has never actually been voted on.

Pros:
Symmetry with reverse trap.
It's used by several other sites.
It is the common vernacular for this type of character.
Nobody actually uses Otoko no Ko outside of Japan

Cons:
Has some controversy
Not used in Japan
Possibly ambiguous with booby trap

BUR #40542 has been rejected.

create alias otoko_no_ko -> femboy

Or we can go with the term people use much more often these days.

I think it should've never been changed. If it really was as ambiguous as it's claimed, then we would've removed the alias trap -> otoko no ko years ago.

For what's worth it, back when I first started to use the site I was really confused by the fact that we used otoko no ko. If you don't speak japanese you'll never come across "otoko no ko" anywhere in english-speaking anime communities, because everyone just calls them traps.

Both sankaku and gelbooru use trap btw, so we're currently the odd ones out.

I see way more people use "femboy" rather than "trap" nowadays. "Otoko no ko" seems to only be used in Japan, because I never see that term used in English-speaking spaces.

+1 for femboy, although my circle of people do alternate between it and otoko no ko.

The other sites I use AniDB and VNDB both use trap, if there wasn't an alias I wouldn't be able to find Otoko no Ko. I don't hate femboy but I only associate it with real people not drawings.

I'm just kind of bothered this has never been voted on before.

Out of the above options, I would prefer trap, although both are more intuitive for English speakers (and therefore better) than what we currently use. I've never used the term otoko no ko when communicating outside of a Danbooru context.

I think trap by itself is ambiguous. Rather than adding a qualifier to it, I think femboy would fit better, and is equally intelligible.
(As a bonus, we can avoid the entire "trap is a slur" discussion)

By the way, I think E-Hentai uses "tomgirl" as tag, so that could be considered too.

tapnek said:

BUR #40542 has been rejected.

create alias otoko_no_ko -> femboy

Or we can go with the term people use much more often these days.

How do we know "femboy" is used more often than "trap"? If we're going to use popularity as an argument, I think we need something objective, like word statistics or something.

Also, some users in topic #10521 discussed the potential problem with finding a female equivalent for femboy. Do we have any terms for that now?

nonamethanks said:

Both sankaku and gelbooru use trap btw, so we're currently the odd ones out.

I don't actually use sankaku so I could just be misreading how the tag system works, but I think trap and otoko no ko are... separate tags??? Maybe that shouldn't be used as an example. Gelbooru does seem to use trap as main name though.

Blank_User said:

Also, some users in topic #10521 discussed the potential problem with finding a female equivalent for femboy. Do we have any terms for that now?

I've heard of "Mascgirl", but it's a pretty niche term IMO. it does show results on Google, but not too much.

Hoshino_Yumemi said:

I don't actually use sankaku so I could just be misreading how the tag system works, but I think trap and otoko no ko are... separate tags??? Maybe that shouldn't be used as an example. Gelbooru does seem to use trap as main name though.

For sankaku, last I checked that's because a good portion of their uploads come from us, so they get all of our uploads tagged with otoko no ko. But their users use trap, so the amount of posts using trap is nearly the same or more as otoko no ko, which is a telltale sign that our attempt at forcing this name failed miserably. Even when having this name forced upon them by upstream, they still end up using the old one.

For gelbooru, they aliased otoko no ko to trap, it's just that their autocomplete doesn't show the final alias.

"Otokonoko" is a visual wordplay that only works when it's written in Japanese. In romaji it just means "boy".

Also: otokonoko is one word.

If it's not broke, why fix it? The tag is fine as is

Kommandant said:

If it's not broke, why fix it? The tag is fine as is

It's this exact argument that should have been raised when the tag was changed all those years ago.

AngryZapdos said:

It's this exact argument that should have been raised when the tag was changed all those years ago.

It's also been 11 years. More of a fuss should've been raised back then or reversed by a higher authority.

nonamethanks said:

For sankaku, last I checked that's because a good portion of their uploads come from us, so they get all of our uploads tagged with otoko no ko. But their users use trap, so the amount of posts using trap is nearly the same or more as otoko no ko, which is a telltale sign that our attempt at forcing this name failed miserably. Even when having this name forced upon them by upstream, they still end up using the old one.

Oh, ok then. I was a bit confused on that end.

Kommandant said:

It's also been 11 years. More of a fuss should've been raised back then or reversed by a higher authority.

Agreed on this, I find it very strange that there's so much talk of it now all of a sudden well, i know what's to blame (or at least a major component).

If there was something objectively wrong with the tag name, I would understand. But this just seems like a sudden shift in opinion regarding the tag's main alias. If it was really a huge problem, it should have been switched back sooner.

If we're doing this, I'd rather that trap without a qualifier be deprecated and we use something like trap_(person).

Hoshino_Yumemi said:

Agreed on this, I find it very strange that there's so much talk of it now all of a sudden well, i know what's to blame (or at least a major component).

If there was something objectively wrong with the tag name, I would understand. But this just seems like a sudden shift in opinion regarding the tag's main alias. If it was really a huge problem, it should have been switched back sooner.

The thing that prompted this was topic #31690, in which attempts were made to alias reverse trap to an alternate tag.

Hoshino_Yumemi said:

If there was something objectively wrong with the tag name, I would understand. But this just seems like a sudden shift in opinion regarding the tag's main alias. If it was really a huge problem, it should have been switched back sooner.

There is nothing "objectively" wrong with the current name and trap is aliased to it so I can at least find it, but I have always found it weird and it's not a sudden shift in opinion. It's not the term I or anyone I know uses. I wasn't on the site when it was switched, but I wouldn't have vouched for a change back then to a Japanese term nobody actually uses. I also recognize that some people find the name insensitive and unlike reverse_trap there are people who take issue with it. While I don't personally feel that way I have in the past vouched for more inclusive terminology (to no avail ) so it's not malicious I assure you.

I think since the companion reverse trap thread is up now is a good time to actually vote on it and poll opinion.