Also on wikis: Having a list of a bunch of characters on the tag's wiki is certainly not helping its scope: mizuki (arknights) is on there, while most of his posts never had the tag (and I would say should not be/have been tagged with either tag or the related tags discussed in this).
I mean, yeah? Having a list of characters probably isn't that great of an idea. They're not always going to be drawn by artists in a way that passes for our tag, and it may be heavily debated if they ever counted as traps. But that's more an argument for removing that part of the wiki, not for broadening its scope.
Apologies, I either clicked on some strange revision without the thumbnail line or misread it: still, I think the wording of the wiki has changed so to argue that "it was a misnamed trap tag" is not perfect. (also, using 'thumbnail' as your guide still seems a bit strange, there are certainly posts that would probably be disqualified that might be argued to follow that test)
I'm not arguing to expand the scope of the tag due to the character list, I am agreeing with you that the list is a bad idea due to encouraging people to tag those characters regardless of their actual appearance in a given image.
This entire point to me seems moot. It doesn't really matter how Pixiv defines it if the average person isn't sticking to that definition. If users both here and on pixiv are misusing the tag to the point that people sincerely believe the tag is much broader than it's supposed to be, then us using the misunderstood term will just continue to invite people to misuse it.
I think you've misunderstood the post. The average person believes otokonoko should look convincingly like girls, same as our definition. One user misunderstanding the tag based on a mistag by one artist cannot be extrapolated as a trend.
Apologies, I either clicked on some strange revision without the thumbnail line or misread it: still, I think the wording of the wiki has changed so to argue that "it was a misnamed trap tag" is not perfect. (also, using 'thumbnail' as your guide still seems a bit strange, there are certainly posts that would probably be disqualified that might be argued to follow that test)
The wiki has had its wording slightly altered over the years, but I don't believe there's ever been a period where the tag claimed to be for anything broader than "men that are virtually indistinguishable from women." So no, I do think it's been "trap but misnamed" this entire time, because the wiki has never changed what it claims the tag is for. It even specifically clarifies it's not just for any feminine looking male. The only thing I would really argue could be ambiguous or misleading is the very first line that just says, "A male character who looks female." The very first paragraph should say exactly what a tag is for, not be clarified two paragraphs down.
And I think the test is fine. It's not meant to be the only consideration. It's just a filter for characters that are obviously male even before you've opened the post. If you can tell the character is male at 5% of the image's actual size, then it's definitely not a trap. I've also used the test myself, but in reverse. I stumbled across post #4974650 and a few others from that artist, and genuinely believed it was futanari before being surprised to see it was tagged 1boy. I was fooled despite there being a plainly visible penis in the thumbnail. Even at full size you could easily convince me that's a girl.
It's just a quick and dirty filter, not an ironclad rule.
What are you even talking about? 'otoko no ko' tag existed, and I could search images by it. But recently, all images tagged 'otoko no ko' were all changed to 'trap' and now when I type 'otoko_no_ko' in the search bar, it change to 'trap'.
If you keep typing and ignore the 'trap' suggestion the search will still work as you expect, but not ignoring it is faster
I'm not upvoting this unless a suitable replacement can be found for reverse trap my main goal initially for this thread was sorting it out this tags name to confirm if that one needed to be updated and what it would need to be updated to. Now that tag name symmetry has been achieved via this outcome I'm not gung ho to change it.
Also to weigh in on usage, if the boy doesn't look like a girl don't tag him trap, he shouldn't have been tagged onk either. Androgynous is what a lot of the non-passing cases here should actually be tagged with like post #9479986.
I'm not upvoting this unless a suitable replacement can be found for reverse trap.
Maybe there should be another vote as to a replacement for that tag; I'm sure people would've found a compromise if they knew it would lead to this.
The original suggestion was "bifauxnen", someone suggested "onna no ko". There's also "dansou" (female-to-male crossdressing), the phrase that Pixiv translates into English as 'reverse trap'". My personal preference is for "ikemen joshi" (handsome girl); if identifiability is the issue, I think "ikemen" and "joshi" are words a good deal of Western anime fans are familiar with.
Ideally, any suggestion that has to use a Japanese term should has a high degree of overlap with actual use when describing Danbooru-relevant art in Japanese. "イケメン女子" has a significantly less aligned result percentage on Pixiv than 男の娘 and unfortunately 男装's literal meaning suggests things that might cause mistagging.
(I'm very open to a good replacement if there is one, but I found all of the proposals had significant issues.)
The original suggestion was "bifauxnen", someone suggested "onna no ko". There's also "dansou" (female-to-male crossdressing), the phrase that Pixiv translates into English as 'reverse trap'". My personal preference is for "ikemen joshi"; it literally means "handsome girl", and I think "ikemen" and "joshi" are words a good deal of Western anime fans are familiar with.
The problem is Ikemen Josei/Handsome Lady are NOT the same as reverse_trap just take a look through pool #6118 which is full of female butlers and stuff like post #753202. While they are related terms it's not the same concept. I have the same issue with every proposed tag suggestion it doesn't have the same narrow definition of "trap" if a name is sorted out I would be more inclined to change this tags name but there hasn't been a proper solution found. That is a discussion for that thread though.
The problem is Ikemen Josei/Handsome Lady are NOT the same as reverse_trap just take a look through pool #6118 which is full of female butlers and stuff like post #753202. While they are related terms it's not the same concept. I have the same issue with every proposed tag suggestion it doesn't have the same narrow definition of "trap" if a name is sorted out I would be more inclined to change this tags name but there hasn't been a proper solution found. That is a discussion for that thread though.
Ironically that post is in fact tagged reverse trap. Shouldn't be, of course, that's obviously a woman even at a glance.
What seems to be emerging from this thread is that people have confused trap to mean any feminine boy regardless of whether they actually look like a girl (the actual usage of trap).
I'm going to sort through trap in the coming weeks to try and move the worst mistags to girly boy and see if that tag grows significantly, but at this point something like forum #362889 is looking like the actual most sensible option. We should be able to search for these tropes separately, if I want to see traps it doesn't mean I want to see obviously male characters that are just dressing cutely.
The problem is that given that a lot of people search for traps, and long-time users have grown to just type otoko no ko, an alias removal at the moment would be pretty bad because people used to the old name would not immediately get the new tag. (I also want to note that we were still getting thousands of searches a week for "trap" and "femboy" even when it was called ONK, which was one of the many reasons why the tag should've been moved a lot sooner).
The problem is that given that a lot of people search for traps, and long-time users have grown to just type otoko no ko, an alias removal at the moment would be pretty bad because people used to the old name would not immediately get the new tag.
I agree we shouldn't rush it. I mainly wanted to get a sense of how many would support the split.
Technically speaking, we don't even need to unalias otoko no ko immediately, because there's a utility alias that can be unaliased instead if we want to re-establish it parallel to trap - otokonoko. Then, once that tag is established, we can unalias otoko no ko from trap and alias it to otokonoko instead.
Maybe there should be another vote as to a replacement for that tag; I'm sure people would've found a compromise if they knew it would lead to this.
The original suggestion was "bifauxnen", someone suggested "onna no ko". There's also "dansou" (female-to-male crossdressing), the phrase that Pixiv translates into English as 'reverse trap'". My personal preference is for "ikemen joshi" (handsome girl); if identifiability is the issue, I think "ikemen" and "joshi" are words a good deal of Western anime fans are familiar with.
While I don't think the reverse trap tag should be removed, I wonder if it may be useful to split crossdressing MTF and crossdressing FTM (i.e. "josou" and "dansou"). The two of them are fairly distinct and in order to find one or the other you have to go through hoops trying to input search qualifiers for MTF/FTM specifically, and that makes it really hard for non-Gold/Platinum users. That distinction already exists for Genderswap - I don't see why it couldn't be done with crossdressing as well. That would probably require a new BUR though.
I wonder if it may be useful to split crossdressing MTF and crossdressing FTM (i.e. "josou" and "dansou").
this has been brought up before and i don't see why not. we have a distinction between genderswap (mtf) / genderswap (ftm), trap / reverse trap and so on. the actual issue is that it would require gardening all 39 thousand crossdressing posts, a task that i'm not sure if anyone's taken up yet.
While I don't think the reverse trap tag should be removed, I wonder if it may be useful to split crossdressing MTF and crossdressing FTM (i.e. "josou" and "dansou"). The two of them are fairly distinct and in order to find one or the other you have to go through hoops trying to input search qualifiers for MTF/FTM specifically, and that makes it really hard for non-Gold/Platinum users. That distinction already exists for Genderswap - I don't see why it couldn't be done with crossdressing as well. That would probably require a new BUR though.
Not just a new BUR, a new thread entirely since making individual crossdressing tags has nothing to do with the topic of either this thread or the reverse thread. Since you're now the second person to bring it up, after forum #362807, I think that's enough to warrant making a thread over.
Kaleidoscoped said:
this has been brought up before and i don't see why not. we have a distinction between genderswap (mtf) / genderswap (ftm), trap / reverse trap and so on. the actual issue is that it would require gardening all 39 thousand crossdressing posts, a task that i'm not sure if anyone's taken up yet.
Yeah, gardening it would probably be the biggest hurdle, but when there's a will, there's a way, akin to topic #29124.
Not just a new BUR, a new thread entirely since making individual crossdressing tags has nothing to do with the topic of either this thread or the reverse thread. Since you're now the second person to bring it up, after forum #362807, I think that's enough to warrant making a thread over.
Why does this website's voter base keep adding transphobic terminology to its tags
Blame the userbase.
"The problem is that given that a lot of people search for traps, and long-time users have grown to just type otoko no ko, an alias removal at the moment would be pretty bad because people used to the old name would not immediately get the new tag. (I also want to note that we were still getting thousands of searches a week for "trap" and "femboy" even when it was called ONK, which was one of the many reasons why the tag should've been moved a lot sooner)."
